Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

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Island Nucklehead
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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Island Nucklehead » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:25 am

Hockey Widow wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:33 am
Again Doc. How many positions did they give up in that swap of picks?
Why bother rehashing this again and again?

The issue people have with Sutter is not necessarily the player himself (he’s a good third-like C). People don’t like it because:

-He wasn’t an obvious upgrade on what we had at the time (Bobino was a decent 2nd line C for us);

- People wanted a rebuild. Bonino had significant value to a contender. He was cheap and (as we saw in Pittsburgh) productive. He should have been moved for draft picks and/or prospects (or kept for another year as a cheap placeholder) not packaged up for another veteran;

- The Sutter acquisition (like Gudbranson) is a prime example of the futility of JB’s “retool” strategy. We filled a need (Depth C) that was like 14th on our list of things that needed to happen, and about 3 years from when we really needed it.

So yeah, it’s less about moving down in the draft than it is about the strategy behind the acquisition. We didn’t need a Brandon Sutter, we needed more lottery tickets. Instead of packaging bonino and moving down in the draft we should have had 1-2 more young assets to develop, and filled the hole via UFA.

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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by RoyalDude » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:18 am

The Canucks drafted an excellent prospect with the 3rd acquired in the Sutter acquisition - Lockwood

Sutter is still a quality asset and will be a very tradeable/desirable asset after this season with 2 years remaining on a modified contract. Still young - turns 30 next February

Sutter was an acquisition to appease the Sedin situation

Bonino the American wasn’t going to resign here when he became a UFA, not too mention he phoned it in in the Flames series

Great trade! Sutter and Lockwood are still Canuck property. Bonino signed with Nashville, Clendenning has played with 4 different teams since and is now playing with Forsling in the minors. The Pens traded the prospect they drafted with 2nd we gave up in the deal
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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Diehard1 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:05 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:18 am
The Canucks drafted an excellent prospect with the 3rd acquired in the Sutter acquisition - Lockwood

Sutter is still a quality asset and will be a very tradeable/desirable asset after this season with 2 years remaining on a modified contract. Still young - turns 30 next February

Sutter was an acquisition to appease the Sedin situation

Bonino the American wasn’t going to resign here when he became a UFA, not too mention he phoned it in in the Flames series

Great trade! Sutter and Lockwood are still Canuck property. Bonino signed with Nashville, Clendenning has played with 4 different teams since and is now playing with Forsling in the minors. The Pens traded the prospect they drafted with 2nd we gave up in the deal
Pitt may have traded the player they picked with our pick (they’ve traded almost everyone so it’s not surprising), but with the pick traded we could have taken Dillon Dube, Carl Grundstrom, or Taylor Raddysh. Those were the 3 guys taken right after the Pittsburgh pick and all are better prospects than Lockwood. I like Lockwood as a future 3rd/4th line energy guy assuming he can stay healthy but would rather have one of those 3.

As IN said, could have and should have traded Bonino for younger assets rather than a guy like Sutter who wasn’t needed then. He’s somewhat needed now though we just overpaid a very similar player in Beagle, so that’s debatable.

It’s not so much the Sutter is, rather than the strategy it showed to try and continue to be competitive while rebuilding. Given we have more losses in the last 3 seasons than any other team in the league it’s hard to argue it could have gone any worse, though I expect somebody will disagree.

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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Island Nucklehead » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:11 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:18 am
Sutter is still a quality asset and will be a very tradeable/desirable asset after this season with 2 years remaining on a modified contract. Still young - turns 30 next February.
I will give you this. If Benning can turn Sutter into futures in the next year or two, that will be a big bonus.
Diehard1 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:05 am
It’s not so much the Sutter is, rather than the strategy it showed to try and continue to be competitive while rebuilding. Given we have more losses in the last 3 seasons than any other team in the league it’s hard to argue it could have gone any worse, though I expect somebody will disagree.
This is the cause of most of our frustration, I think. It's not necessarily the Bonino-Sutter swap (although the Pens clearly won that trade, just looking how it worked out for each team, given their expectations coming out of the deal), it's the idea that we should be packaging assets that could be used to further a rebuild on veteran players that aren't likely to be impact players for the franchise.

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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:41 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:18 am
Sutter is still a quality asset and will be a very tradeable/desirable asset after this season with 2 years remaining on a modified contract.
This feature, if it exists, is only useful if the Canucks actually do trade him. The player drafted with the pick Bonino might have returned instead could be ready to contribute now.
RoyalDude wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:18 am
Sutter was an acquisition to appease the Sedin situation
Your thesis is that the Sedins were leaning on the ownership/management group to provide complementary players with whom they could win now? You have evidence to support this?
RoyalDude wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:18 am
Clendenning has played with 4 different teams since and is now playing with Forsling in the minors.
So should that count as a weak draft pick by Benning in the first place, or a weak trade in failing to upgrade on it, or both ?

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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Reefer2 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:45 am

Strangelove wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:14 pm

Fact is, Brandon Sutter is an elite 3rd line centre.
An elite 3rd line centre, wow I did not know that was a requirements for a team to win games. I have heard of an elite 1st line player but never a 3rd line player.

JB is a genius to get us an elite 3rd line centre.

Edit - I just realized LE is an elite 3rd line player and an elite PK man.

JB really is a genius.

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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by nuckster » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:18 am

This article is in synch with a number of people's view regarding this year's FA:
https://www.tsn.ca/talent/canucks-take- ... -1.1129744

An alternate view to JBs, might be to seek to obtain a legit seasoned play-making center to play alongside Petterson, rather than opt for another PLUG, to accompany the compliment of many plugs we already have. Just sayin. And if JB did so, would he not have been applauded by the JB cult regardless?
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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Reefer2 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:31 am

nuckster wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:18 am
This article is in synch with a number of people's view regarding this year's FA:
https://www.tsn.ca/talent/canucks-take- ... -1.1129744

An alternate view to JBs, might be to seek to obtain a legit seasoned play-making center to play alongside Petterson, rather than opt for another PLUG, to accompany the compliment of many plugs we already have. Just sayin. And if JB did so, would he not have been applauded by the JB cult regardless?
TSN as usual is missing the point, the Canucks need some sandpaper and JB got what he thought he needed. These guys are not brought in to play top 6, PP or anything else remotely offensive in anyway.

I liked the comment someone else made about the fact that EP and maybe Hughes will be given a chance to make the team this year, neither of these guys will stop that that. Now term is something that is too long and $$, eh, it seems to be market value. Going in with what they had last year and bringing in EP/Hughes would be a disaster.

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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by micky107 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:34 am

nuckster wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:18 am
This article is in synch with a number of people's view regarding this year's FA:
https://www.tsn.ca/talent/canucks-take- ... -1.1129744

An alternate view to JBs, might be to seek to obtain a legit seasoned play-making center to play alongside Petterson, rather than opt for another PLUG, to accompany the compliment of many plugs we already have. Just sayin. And if JB did so, would he not have been applauded by the JB cult regardless?
To tell you the truth; If I were Bo Horvat, I might be starting to get a little pissed at all freakin zillions of (not so bright) comments of
lack of leadership being the reason why older dudes were hired (for a coon's age) to supply it.
"evolution"

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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Diehard1 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:42 am

Reefer2 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:31 am
nuckster wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:18 am
This article is in synch with a number of people's view regarding this year's FA:
https://www.tsn.ca/talent/canucks-take- ... -1.1129744

An alternate view to JBs, might be to seek to obtain a legit seasoned play-making center to play alongside Petterson, rather than opt for another PLUG, to accompany the compliment of many plugs we already have. Just sayin. And if JB did so, would he not have been applauded by the JB cult regardless?
TSN as usual is missing the point, the Canucks need some sandpaper and JB got what he thought he needed. These guys are not brought in to play top 6, PP or anything else remotely offensive in anyway.

I liked the comment someone else made about the fact that EP and maybe Hughes will be given a chance to make the team this year, neither of these guys will stop that that. Now term is something that is too long and $$, eh, it seems to be market value. Going in with what they had last year and bringing in EP/Hughes would be a disaster.
I don't mind the strategy of bringing in sandpaper as I agree it was needed - it's the contracts that suck. The Schaller one was a small overpayment, whatever, we can afford it. The Roussel one was a year too long and probably $500k a year too expensive, though I like what he brings, again it was needed and we can afford it. The Beagle one is hard to defend, not sure why they wanted him so much that they would make a massive overpayment for too many years and too many dollars. Making it buyout proof and with a no trade? That's bizarre.

We can afford all of these right now and likely next year too. After that, assuming the young guys grow as they should, we could be in more trouble. Pettersson, Hughes, Dahlen, Gaudette, Juolevi, Gadjovich, Lind - all could need contracts in the next 2-3 years and we'll be stuck with Beagle, Eriksson, Roussel, and perhaps a massive cap recapture for Luongo - as much as $8.5 milllion if he retires in 2021. That almost surely means we lose a good player and can't add salary at a time we will really want to.

Hopefully they've budgeted for all of these things and it won't be an issue, but I remain skeptical.

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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by micky107 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:04 am

OK, that brings a question to mind.
My guess is Luongo probably cannot play, or, be effective, past 2019. I mean by this coming season's end.
If that were to be correct, does he announce it before next July 1st or wait till training camp, something along those lines.

Oh ya, forgot. You could play the same scenario for the following year too.
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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Strangelove » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:37 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:25 am
Hockey Widow wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:33 am
Again Doc. How many positions did they give up in that swap of picks?
Why bother rehashing this again and again?
Because people (yourself included) keep repeating the myth that a pick was "pissed away" in the Sutter trade.
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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Strangelove » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:42 am

Reefer2 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:45 am
Strangelove wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:14 pm

Fact is, Brandon Sutter is an elite 3rd line centre.
An elite 3rd line centre, wow I did not know that was a requirements for a team to win games.
Who said anything about winning games?? :sly:

I'm the "try to focus on X-number of years from now" guy remember?

Also, I've called Sutter a mentor from Day One.

Do you never tire from constructing strawmen?
Reefer2 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:45 am
I have heard of an elite 1st line player but never a 3rd line player.
More proof you don't read posts...
Reefer2 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:45 am
JB is a genius to get us an elite 3rd line centre.
For Bonino?

Yes.
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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Strangelove » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:45 am

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:41 am
RoyalDude wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:18 am
Sutter is still a quality asset and will be a very tradeable/desirable asset after this season with 2 years remaining on a modified contract.
This feature, if it exists, is only useful if the Canucks actually do trade him. The player drafted with the pick Bonino might have returned instead could be ready to contribute now.
And if Canucks eventually trade Sutter for that exact same player after getting a few years of use out of Sutter? :sly:
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Re: Free Agency 2018 & Everything Related

Post by Uncle dans leg » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:00 am

Diehard1 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:42 am
Reefer2 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:31 am
nuckster wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:18 am
This article is in synch with a number of people's view regarding this year's FA:
https://www.tsn.ca/talent/canucks-take- ... -1.1129744

An alternate view to JBs, might be to seek to obtain a legit seasoned play-making center to play alongside Petterson, rather than opt for another PLUG, to accompany the compliment of many plugs we already have. Just sayin. And if JB did so, would he not have been applauded by the JB cult regardless?
TSN as usual is missing the point, the Canucks need some sandpaper and JB got what he thought he needed. These guys are not brought in to play top 6, PP or anything else remotely offensive in anyway.

I liked the comment someone else made about the fact that EP and maybe Hughes will be given a chance to make the team this year, neither of these guys will stop that that. Now term is something that is too long and $$, eh, it seems to be market value. Going in with what they had last year and bringing in EP/Hughes would be a disaster.
I don't mind the strategy of bringing in sandpaper as I agree it was needed - it's the contracts that suck. The Schaller one was a small overpayment, whatever, we can afford it. The Roussel one was a year too long and probably $500k a year too expensive, though I like what he brings, again it was needed and we can afford it. The Beagle one is hard to defend, not sure why they wanted him so much that they would make a massive overpayment for too many years and too many dollars. Making it buyout proof and with a no trade? That's bizarre.

We can afford all of these right now and likely next year too. After that, assuming the young guys grow as they should, we could be in more trouble. Pettersson, Hughes, Dahlen, Gaudette, Juolevi, Gadjovich, Lind - all could need contracts in the next 2-3 years and we'll be stuck with Beagle, Eriksson, Roussel, and perhaps a massive cap recapture for Luongo - as much as $8.5 milllion if he retires in 2021. That almost surely means we lose a good player and can't add salary at a time we will really want to.

Hopefully they've budgeted for all of these things and it won't be an issue, but I remain skeptical.
My take from his post spending bonanza interview is they are trying reduce the injuries to key skilled players by loading up the roster with shock absorbers basically.

The Beagle signing was damn good in my books. He is far more than a plug.The other 2 i can take or leave but neither present much of an issue for the foreseeable future.
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