Does Size Matter?

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Does Size Matter?

Postby Cornuck » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:33 am

There seems to be a worthwhile debate spread across a few thread now.

Is this year's version of the Canucks going to be too soft to compete for a full 82 games? Will it lead to teams taking liberties with our young players - and in turn lead to injuries?

Or will the team be ok, and their speed and talent will keep them going?

Do we need a player or two who can provide the grit/muscle/push-back to keep other teams in check and give the kids a little confidence that they won't be pushed around?

Should we add a tough forechecker, or will our youth and speed provide the pressure on opposing D?

Or would a less talented, but gritty player be a waste of a roster spot when need to develop the next group of core talent?

Will Dorsett be the lone aggressor for 2017-18?
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby micky107 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:44 am

Ya, both Blob and I just started talking about this exact thing on the other thread.
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby SKYO » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:48 am

To me it seems obvious you need talent first and foremost to start building around, especially in a rebuild trying to find the scoring talent should be priority number one.

Scotty Bowman won back-to-back Stanley Cups more than once in an illustrious career behind the bench, but the 83-year-old wonders now how feasible it is in today’s NHL.

“Well it’s not going to happen a lot,” Bowman, a nine-time Cup winner, told the Canadian Press in a recent interview. “It’s tougher to do now — no question about that.”

The Chicago Blackhawks are a recent example of that with their roster trimmed of supporting talent after Cup wins in 2010, 2013, and 2015.

Pittsburgh managed to keep the guts of last year’s Cup roster intact this year — though they lost No. 1 defenceman Kris Letang to a season-ending injury — but Bowman noted their struggles in building capable units after victory in 2009.

“When you pay three or four guys a lot of money it’s hard to keep your team,” said Bowman, now a senior adviser to the Blackhawks where his son, Stan, works as general manager.

What the Penguins have done, the elder Bowman observed, was develop quality talent internally around Crosby, Letang and Evgeni Malkin, naming Matt Murray as one shining example.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/05/29/sc ... -to-do-now


A team needs to develop quality talent first, then you can worry about adding dime-a-dozen forecheckers/grit/muscle after.
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby Uncle dans leg » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:14 pm

It has been common over the years to have tougher players line up with softies. If a guy is a top talent but lacks on the other end why not help him create space and have someone to pinch hit for him in the trenches?
Its why I've always wanted the Sedins on 2 lines...too much fluffy in one pillowslip
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby micky107 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:17 pm

Don't totally agree with that Skyo.
But I'm not talking about the dime a dozen types. I'm talking about an upgrade from Dorsette.
Accountability is needed AS the youth is developing.
Would gladly pay the price for one or two of those types as opposed to paying LE 6 mill a year.
Done properly, this, I think, would create more room for young offensive minded players to grow, not to mention, show them a trick or two, without diminishing their flash and dance.
Costly though. Not talking about journeymen here.
Guess that's why I'm a tad pissed about our cap...
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby SKYO » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:34 pm

Canucks biggest problem the last while has been scoring goals or lack thereof, I'd be happy to see that situation be somewhat resolved this upcoming season.

You build up assets by hoping some of these depth scorers get 20+ goals, so you can then start packaging up players for size/skill.

Sedins contracts expire July 1st 2018, just when Evander Kane will be avail, you can add him to our top 6 in 2018.

Gadjovich and Virtanen can be added next season as well maybe.

Gadjovich is a big power forward left winger, who does a good job driving the net, measuring in at 6-foot-2, 209 pounds who chipped in 46 goals this past season, adding 28 assists for 74 points in 60 games.

Jonah is a big, has decent hands and a bullet of a shot.
https://canucksarmy.com/2017/06/24/canu ... h-overall/

“I’m a power forward” Gadjovich said without a moment’s hesitation. “I love being in the corners and I’m heavy on pucks, and I make a living in front of the net – that’s what I’m going to do.”
https://canucksarmy.com/2017/06/24/gadj ... r-forward/


Add those three to our young squad and that should help satisfy ol' micky and blobberino desires to be the big bad bruins, yes that's what you said jk.

-
So when Sedins move on.

Baertschi Horvat Boeser
Kane Gagner Eriksson
Dahlen Pettersson Virtanen
Gadjovich Sutter/Gaunce Dorsett
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby ESQ » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:14 pm

When it comes to opening night roster, given the offensive problems of the last two years, I'd much prefer to see the most skilled players make the lineup.

I believe that means Dorsett isn't on the team, and I'm fine with that.

According to NHL.com's stats, Canucks were #28 for hits (yes I know its totally subjective blah blah blah). There seems to be no correlation between hitting/PIMs/fighting majors and standing results. For example, Smashville was #21 for hits., Pittsburgh was #8. LA was #1, Chicago was #30.

Pittsburgh went out and got themselves a goon, I'm fairly certain he'll have no impact on the team's on-ice performance.
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:58 pm

SKYO wrote:To me it seems obvious you need talent first and foremost to start building around, especially in a rebuild trying to find the scoring talent should be priority number one.

Scotty Bowman won back-to-back Stanley Cups more than once in an illustrious career behind the bench, but the 83-year-old wonders now how feasible it is in today’s NHL.

“Well it’s not going to happen a lot,” Bowman, a nine-time Cup winner, told the Canadian Press in a recent interview. “It’s tougher to do now — no question about that.”

The Chicago Blackhawks are a recent example of that with their roster trimmed of supporting talent after Cup wins in 2010, 2013, and 2015.

Pittsburgh managed to keep the guts of last year’s Cup roster intact this year — though they lost No. 1 defenceman Kris Letang to a season-ending injury — but Bowman noted their struggles in building capable units after victory in 2009.

“When you pay three or four guys a lot of money it’s hard to keep your team,” said Bowman, now a senior adviser to the Blackhawks where his son, Stan, works as general manager.

What the Penguins have done, the elder Bowman observed, was develop quality talent internally around Crosby, Letang and Evgeni Malkin, naming Matt Murray as one shining example.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/05/29/sc ... -to-do-now


A team needs to develop quality talent first, then you can worry about adding dime-a-dozen forecheckers/grit/muscle after.

Why does one have to be independent of the other ? I don't understand why it's " sign skill first then add size & tenacity". Like wtf how about add skill or size or a combination of both when it presents itself. This drivel about one before the other is idiotic. You can do both for fuck sakes. How about instead of adding overpaid ,skinny , soft useless fucks like Sutter and Louis , bring in someone who actually fits a a need.
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby Aaronp18 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:28 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Why does one have to be independent of the other ? I don't understand why it's " sign skill first then add size & tenacity". Like wtf how about add skill or size or a combination of both when it presents itself.


Doesn't drafting Virtanen ahead of Nylander fall into this category?

Again, I've been critical of Jake but if he can turn things around he's exactly what we're looking for. Not to mention we have a couple kids that can be much more physical coming through the pipeline in Gaudette, Gadjovich and even Kole Lind plays a more assertive game.

I think what's being said is that we are sadly lacking some high end skill, hockey IQ and goal scoring ability. That should definitely be a focus and it seems to be, especially in the first round. The physical play can and will come from other areas. We can not only sign tougher players but we are drafting them in the early-mid rounds and bringing them up through the system already!
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby micky107 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:34 pm

I think the thought from some is a bit of hired help on the toughness side, a little older, maybe 25/26.
Jake kind of still is the youth.
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:47 pm

Aaronp18 wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:Why does one have to be independent of the other ? I don't understand why it's " sign skill first then add size & tenacity". Like wtf how about add skill or size or a combination of both when it presents itself.


Doesn't drafting Virtanen ahead of Nylander fall into this category?

Again, I've been critical of Jake but if he can turn things around he's exactly what we're looking for. Not to mention we have a couple kids that can be much more physical coming through the pipeline in Gaudette, Gadjovich and even Kole Lind plays a more assertive game.

I think what's being said is that we are sadly lacking some high end skill, hockey IQ and goal scoring ability. That should definitely be a focus and it seems to be, especially in the first round. The physical play can and will come from other areas. We can not only sign tougher players but we are drafting them in the early-mid rounds and bringing them up through the system already!

Obviously AP you draft skill over size when given the opportunity. My pint is Elmer has had four summers to add some jam to the team and he has failed. He seems to like adding fudge however.
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby Aaronp18 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:49 pm

micky107 wrote:I think the thought from some is a bit of hired help on the toughness side, a little older, maybe 25/26.
Jake kind of still is the youth.


That would be great, however hired help in the 25/26 range are not for sale. They're generally still RFAs or signed currently!

Which is why we are trying to bring them up through the system.

And the UFAs that play this type of role have to want to sign here. If I'm a physical secondary role type player being asked to come in and boost the truculence of the existing roster I'm signing with a team that has a legit chance at doing some playoff damage in the near future. These guys careers generally don't last as long because if the style of game they play!
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby Aaronp18 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:53 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Obviously AP you draft skill over size when given the opportunity. My pint is Elmer has had four summers to add some jam to the team and he has failed. He seems to like adding fudge however.


How do you know he hasn't tried? Guys have to want to come here!

What signings has he missed out on in your opinion?
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:59 pm

Aaronp18 wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:Obviously AP you draft skill over size when given the opportunity. My pint is Elmer has had four summers to add some jam to the team and he has failed. He seems to like adding fudge however.


How do you know he hasn't tried? Guys have to want to come here!

What signings has he missed out on in your opinion?

I'm not sure as I obviously don't have intel into Elmers dome. Jamie McGinn three years 9 million would be okay. Daniel Winnik would fit the bill. Reaves would be a decent 4th line player . Recent cost was sky high , I'm sure he could havebben had cheaper.
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Re: Does Size Matter?

Postby SKYO » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:23 pm

Well JB has been trying to add that size with skill guy forever but it's difficult.

He almost traded for Lucic in 2015,
“I spent a lot of time of time working on that (trade) and I guess Boston felt they were getting a better deal from L.A.,” said Canucks general manager Jim Benning.

and yeah the Kings hella overpaid, Lombardi paid a 1st (13th overall), Martin Jones + prospect for one year of Lucic, basically costing Dean Lombardi his job over that fiasco, along with long term expensive contracts to expendable players.


Then JB almost had Lucic last year via UFA but Chia nabbed him up, with the obvious attraction of being on the same team as McDavid.

Seems JB was after E. Kane as well but Tim Murray wanted overpayment, he lost his job recently as well.

But his moves recently coincide with his thoughts since day 1:
Benning said: “This organization needs to play an up-tempo, fast-skating, skilled game.”

& now we see how Horvat, Baertschi, Granlund, Eriksson, Goldobin/Burmistrov, Boeser, Gagner, Rodin, Boucher, JV & Jonathan Dahlen shape up this rebuilding season. See who plays well here and starts to produce goals/points consistently so we know who JB can trade for help in other areas and who to keep.


On the development side for size/grit we have 18 yrs Gadjovich, 20yrs Virtanen, 24yrs LaBate and the recent signing 6'3 205lbs 21 year old Zach MacEwen:

Zach MacEwen
A big strong grinding two-way center with the versatility to move to the wing who possesses the grit and determination to do dirty work on a line. Goes to the net hard, battles for loose pucks and cycles along the boards well and consistently finishes his checks on the forecheck. He is not fun to play against and competes hard with an in your face style.

The forward has quite the track record of fights throughout his two seasons in the QMJHL, with a total of nine. So he isn’t afraid to play physical and drop the gloves when needed.

https://canucksarmy.com/2017/02/15/in-d ... k-macewen/
He had good development camp as well.
23yrs Gaunce is another big fella, albeit less gritty.
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