2017/18 Pacific Division

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 7846
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by Island Nucklehead » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:38 am

RoyalDude wrote: Are you still picking Debrusk, Zorbil, Senyshyn ahead of Boeser? Barzal? Gaudette (same draft class)
Nope, I think Sweeney botched those picks, after being very aggressive in acquiring them.

Nobody is claiming he's a genius.

ESQ
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1586
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by ESQ » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:18 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:

Pasternak leads the team in scoring, Debrusk and McAvoy are both on 40-point paces. Heinen is 22. Bork is 21 and has 9 points in 16 games. Marchand is only 29 and Krug is 26. They were a playoff team last year, and are only three seasons removed from an appearance in the Cup finals.

They're icing a younger team than Vancouver, and seeing as they haven't had a top-10 pick since Hamilton/Seguin (thanks Toronto) I'd say the Bruins actually have done the "rebuild on the fly," while the Canucks have been forced into the more traditional rebuild.
OK!

So the Bruins, over the past 4 years:

13/14 - won President's Trophy, out in the 2nd round.
14/15 - missed playoffs
15//16 - missed playoffs
16/17 - made playoffs by 1 point, out in the 1st round.

So - missed playoffs twice in a row, are back for a one-and-done in year 3.

That's your measure of a "rebuild on the fly"? Seems pretty realistic, +1.

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 7846
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by Island Nucklehead » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:32 am

ESQ wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:

Pasternak leads the team in scoring, Debrusk and McAvoy are both on 40-point paces. Heinen is 22. Bork is 21 and has 9 points in 16 games. Marchand is only 29 and Krug is 26. They were a playoff team last year, and are only three seasons removed from an appearance in the Cup finals.

They're icing a younger team than Vancouver, and seeing as they haven't had a top-10 pick since Hamilton/Seguin (thanks Toronto) I'd say the Bruins actually have done the "rebuild on the fly," while the Canucks have been forced into the more traditional rebuild.
OK!

So the Bruins, over the past 4 years:

13/14 - won President's Trophy, out in the 2nd round.
14/15 - missed playoffs
15//16 - missed playoffs
16/17 - made playoffs by 1 point, out in the 1st round.

So - missed playoffs twice in a row, are back for a one-and-done in year 3.

That's your measure of a "rebuild on the fly"? Seems pretty realistic, +1.
It's worth keeping in mind that in the seasons they missed they still had 96 and 93 points, respectively.

Certainly more "on the fly" and "remaining competitive" than what the Canucks (averaging 77 point seasons since their President's Trophy) have managed.

ESQ
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1586
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by ESQ » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:39 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote: It's worth keeping in mind that in the seasons they missed they still had 96 and 93 points, respectively.

Certainly more "on the fly" and "remaining competitive" than what the Canucks (averaging 77 point seasons since their President's Trophy) have managed.
I'd say its also worth mentioning that Boston traded away 3 second-round picks and 4 other picks at the deadlines of those non-playoff years.

User avatar
Lancer
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 2108
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:41 am
Location: Arnprior, Ontario

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by Lancer » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:34 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:Plight of the Bruins? Given their respective seasons thus far, it's funny you think the Bruins are in some kind of purgatory, at least compared with Vancouver.

Pasternak leads the team in scoring, Debrusk and McAvoy are both on 40-point paces. Heinen is 22. Bork is 21 and has 9 points in 16 games. Marchand is only 29 and Krug is 26. They were a playoff team last year, and are only three seasons removed from an appearance in the Cup finals.

They're icing a younger team than Vancouver, and seeing as they haven't had a top-10 pick since Hamilton/Seguin (thanks Toronto) I'd say the Bruins actually have done the "rebuild on the fly," while the Canucks have been forced into the more traditional rebuild.
For a team that beat the Canucks for the Stanley Cup in 2011, they haven't been a contender in recent years. In fact, they have no replacement for Rask. Jury's out whether McAvoy will be able to replace Chara. Heinen, De Brusk and Bjork appear to be nothing more than depth players. The new wave, outside of Pastrnak, doesn't promise to be any replacement for the likes of Krejci. Considering that the only real difference between the Bruins 'rebuild' - if that's indeed what they're doing - is a couple of playoff dates then how much difference is there in the end? They have no more Cups to show for it, nor have they seriously contended since Benning and Chiarelli left. Further, their drafting has yielded one skill top-6 player and a bunch of middle-6 depth players with no real replacements for their star players. To me, that speaks to the void left by Chiarelli and Benning.

The fact that Chiarelli inherited an embarrassment of young talent and a generational draft pick and has one playoff series win to show for it while witnessing this season's garbage fire leads one to suspect that perhaps the void wasn't left by him.

The fact that Benning has been able to draft, trade and develop what is looking like the next wave of what could be a contending team in a couple years speaks, to me, that perhaps the biggest void left was by Benning. Boston's drafting hasn't been the same and their hovering into Calgary Flames 'also-ran' hell. Not like I'd complain and would love nothing better than for them to be a one-and-done playoff team for eternity and the shitty draft position that garners them. Marchand will only get worse, Chara is already too old to be a dominant defenceman and Rask has peaked. Stick a fork in them.
If Edmonton didn’t win the lottery with McJesus, you wonder if things would be appreciably better than before they drafted him?
Kind of a silly question, isn't it? Of course they'd be worse. Ditto for Pittsburgh without Crosby, Washington without Ovechkin, Tampa without Stamkos etc.[/quote]

The point here is that if Chiarelli was such a genius, he would have been able to build a better team than what he inherited even if he hadn't drafted McJesus. The fact that he drafted McJesus and they are where they're at now speaks to his "genius" as a GM.

Frankly, of the two, I'm inclined to give the nod to Benning.
Love the Sport. Love the Team.

Hate the League.

User avatar
Blob Mckenzie
CC Legend
Posts: 10036
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 pm
Location: Oakalla

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:49 pm

I’m not sure how much Elmer had to do with the draft while he was in Boston from 2007-2013. That said other than Seguin and Hamilton which were gifts from Burke, it was horrendous. And according to some on this board he shouldn’t get credit for those picks. IE the crap about Eye Bags drafted Horvat with a pick acquired for Schneider. Marchand, Lucic, Bergeron and the nucleus of that team were there before Elmer got there.
TELL ME HOW MY ASS TASTES

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 7846
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by Island Nucklehead » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:56 pm

Lancer wrote: For a team that beat the Canucks for the Stanley Cup in 2011, they haven't been a contender in recent years. In fact, they have no replacement for Rask. Jury's out whether McAvoy will be able to replace Chara. Heinen, De Brusk and Bjork appear to be nothing more than depth players. The new wave, outside of Pastrnak, doesn't promise to be any replacement for the likes of Krejci. Considering that the only real difference between the Bruins 'rebuild' - if that's indeed what they're doing - is a couple of playoff dates then how much difference is there in the end? They have no more Cups to show for it, nor have they seriously contended since Benning and Chiarelli left. Further, their drafting has yielded one skill top-6 player and a bunch of middle-6 depth players with no real replacements for their star players. To me, that speaks to the void left by Chiarelli and Benning.
Point was, they've been more of a contender than Vancouver, while transitioning in younger players. Around these parts, Benning is a genius for simply moving bodies in and out, results be damned (despite obvious attempts to ice a playoff team). Boston, meanwhile, has actually managed to do this and remain respectable. Only five players remain from their 2011 team. The Canucks still have four. To me, it seems they've actually pulled off a plan that Benning hasn't been able to in Vancouver.
Lancer wrote: The point here is that if Chiarelli was such a genius, he would have been able to build a better team than what he inherited even if he hadn't drafted McJesus. The fact that he drafted McJesus and they are where they're at now speaks to his "genius" as a GM.

Frankly, of the two, I'm inclined to give the nod to Benning.
I don't think either of them are geniuses. Both are likely mediocre/average, but Chiarelli has the ring as GM.

User avatar
Lancer
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 2108
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:41 am
Location: Arnprior, Ontario

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by Lancer » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:59 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Lancer wrote: For a team that beat the Canucks for the Stanley Cup in 2011, they haven't been a contender in recent years. In fact, they have no replacement for Rask. Jury's out whether McAvoy will be able to replace Chara. Heinen, De Brusk and Bjork appear to be nothing more than depth players. The new wave, outside of Pastrnak, doesn't promise to be any replacement for the likes of Krejci. Considering that the only real difference between the Bruins 'rebuild' - if that's indeed what they're doing - is a couple of playoff dates then how much difference is there in the end? They have no more Cups to show for it, nor have they seriously contended since Benning and Chiarelli left. Further, their drafting has yielded one skill top-6 player and a bunch of middle-6 depth players with no real replacements for their star players. To me, that speaks to the void left by Chiarelli and Benning.
Point was, they've been more of a contender than Vancouver, while transitioning in younger players. Around these parts, Benning is a genius for simply moving bodies in and out, results be damned (despite obvious attempts to ice a playoff team). Boston, meanwhile, has actually managed to do this and remain respectable. Only five players remain from their 2011 team. The Canucks still have four. To me, it seems they've actually pulled off a plan that Benning hasn't been able to in Vancouver.
To what end? Not advocating a Toronto/Edmonton tank philosophy, but unless Sweeney had been able to ice a roster that could do more than a one-and-out in the playoffs what's the point? You could argue that both sides iced competitive teams to varying degrees but that means fuck all in the end - which means that when it comes to making the best value of the draft picks made I would give Benning the edge over fuck-boy Sweeney.

Benning was brought in to rebuild as best he could, considering where he started relative to Sweeney and Chiarelli I would say he's done the best with the hand he was dealt.
Love the Sport. Love the Team.

Hate the League.

User avatar
Strangelove
Moderator & MVP
Moderator & MVP
Posts: 16555
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:13 pm
Location: Lake Vostok

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by Strangelove » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:44 pm

Lancer wrote: Benning was brought in to rebuild as best he could, considering where he started relative to Sweeney and Chiarelli I would say he's done the best with the hand he was dealt.
Image
____
GO CANUCKS GO!!!

User avatar
Blob Mckenzie
CC Legend
Posts: 10036
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 pm
Location: Oakalla

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:30 pm

Too bad he played Fish for the first three years before he learned to play hold’em
TELL ME HOW MY ASS TASTES

User avatar
ukcanuck
CC Legend
Posts: 3375
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:04 am

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by ukcanuck » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:39 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Lancer wrote: Benning was brought in to rebuild as best he could, considering where he started relative to Sweeney and Chiarelli I would say he's done the best with the hand he was dealt.
Image
So true...

Doc
Why are so many hockey “experts” on this here fan sight so blind to the brilliance of our Benning? I am literally as far away as one can get from the hockey world and even I can see the logical progression that is going on right
under our noses?

Rebuild bleeters seem so lost, Benning brings a muddled persona to the draft party and walks away with gold, He trades away draft picks for reclamation projects that work because he does his homework and knows what’s out there. And here we are in year 4 and its starting to bear fruit.

“They” call me a lackey because I’ve been on board since Beinning and Linden’s hire, but the term strange bedfellows has a certain irony.

“They” apparently have not been reading the water cooler.

User avatar
Reefer2
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3506
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:47 am

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by Reefer2 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:44 pm

I thought someone already defined what a genius is.

I just see a GM doing his job.

User avatar
ukcanuck
CC Legend
Posts: 3375
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:04 am

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by ukcanuck » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:02 am

Reefer2 wrote:I thought someone already defined what a genius is.

I just see a GM doing his job.

In the pantheon of heh hem Canucks general managers, all you see is a guy doing his job??

By comparison, Benning is Moses himself ( Pat Quinn notwithstanding .)

User avatar
RoyalDude
CC Legend
Posts: 11189
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:36 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by RoyalDude » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:07 am

ESQ wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote: It's worth keeping in mind that in the seasons they missed they still had 96 and 93 points, respectively.

Certainly more "on the fly" and "remaining competitive" than what the Canucks (averaging 77 point seasons since their President's Trophy) have managed.
I'd say its also worth mentioning that Boston traded away 3 second-round picks and 4 other picks at the deadlines of those non-playoff years.
Gold Jerry, Gold!

How often have we seen Nuckles urine the streets from Benning trading picks. "But Boston, Boston!" So good.

Sweeney should have been fired after his terrible performance at the 2015 draft table. Trades Lucic and Hamilton and ends with 3 picks in a row, drafting Debrusk, Zorbil and Senyshn all the while Barzal, Boeser, Connor, Chabot, Eriksson-Ek, White, Konecny are still on the board. Just fucking dreadful

I don't know what's worse, Nuckles favourite GM - Chia-Pet trading a first (Barzal) and 33rd (Beauvellier) for Griffin Reinhart? Or Sweeney that same day. Where is Griffin? Hanging 10 with Garrison?

Funny - Sweeney (Boston), Chiarelli (ex-Boston) completely fucked up in the 2015 draft all the while Benning (ex-Boston) walks out of that draft with Boeser and Gaudette with no fan fare. Oh where is the justice

Lemme guess - Nuckles is going to throw more bouquets at Chiarelli for drafting McDavid. His Reinhart acquisition says all you need to know when it comes to all things Chiarelli. Keep building that slow as molasses goon team Chia pet.

Sweeney should have been fired the day after the 2015 draft, Benning named - Draftsmen of the Year
"I just want to say one word to you. Just one word. Are you listening? - Plastics." - The Graduate

User avatar
Island Nucklehead
MVP
MVP
Posts: 7846
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: Ottawa

Re: 2017/18 Pacific Division

Post by Island Nucklehead » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:58 am

RoyalDude wrote:How often have we seen Nuckles urine the streets from Benning trading picks. "But Boston, Boston!" So good.
The inferiority complex is strong in you. Nobody is claiming Boston is any good. Just that they've been better than the Canucks at retooling while remaining competitive. Do try to keep up.

The constant deflecting is tired. You're essentially saying "at least Benning isn't retarded". Keep setting that bar high!

Post Reply