The Rebuild...

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The Rebuild...

Postby SKYO » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:46 am

Alrighty folks it's come to down to this, I know the word patience is thrown around a lot here, but honestly lets face the facts.

If anyone knows me around here it was that I was a heavy optimist for this team, I had high hopes that with a healthy team, the youth getting better, defense fixed up and the stable goaltending that we would be playoff team.

But lo and behold what was expected and overlooked was the Sedins aging and Eriksson not producing - Tre Konor points like a true #1 line, sure they got some points but for the most part they remain invisible if not for the powerplay.

Sedins at their age should now be 2nd liners and get 2nd line minutes, it's just a fact with NHL Cup teams that none have their #1 line with two elders on it.

There are no game breakers on this team, still a lot of unknowns with the youth.

Sutter is a rock solid #3C who can play spot #2C.

Horvat on a good team would still be a #3C, even Granlund imo would be good #3C guy or winger (generous at this point), so basically we have three 3rd line centers and a solid 2nd line.

Another overlooked area was the coaching, the hope was Jarvis would add some respectability to WD's lack of NHL experience coaching skills, but that's fading as we go on this losing streak.

I believe this could be Willie's last year here along with Lidster, if the team continues to flounder Benning will have a tough situation to figure out, have an interim coach or bring up Green or wait till the season is mercifully over an hire a new coach.

But ultimately what this team needs is to start unloading vets for picks and prospects, it's just ripping the band-aid off quick and dirty to speed up the process and let the youth gain more minutes and development time, because even with the vets "mentors" here, we are still losing, not what the doctor ordered for this retooling team.

I'd say JB could/should do a couple things besides unloading some vets that have value right now, it's possibly selling high on Tanev, the haul could be great for a rebuilding team, it's only thanks to having Stecher come out of nowhere and Gudbranson that we have the luxury of trading a great dman such as Tanev.
Plus we should simply let Tryamkin play and learn now (another right side dman), so we'll be better off for it next season. Our right side has Stecher, Gudbranson, Tryamkin and Larsen, all decent on a rebuild, so letting Tanev go for good return up front would be fine and dandy by me.

Other vets with value that should be traded for picks/prospects: Hansen, Miller (SJ, LA or Dallas), Sbisa (HW said a few teams interested for a pick), Burrows dealt at deadline (50%) and maybe Edler (if the price is right, but if we are dealing Tanev, maybe we keep Eddie till Juolevi is ready as our left side is really thin compared to our right side).

It's time to let go of the dream for this season, lets move in the right direction of a rebuild, all while keeping the Sedins here (NMC, 1 1/2 years left), unmovable contracts, be a nice gesture, they aren't hurting the tank if we go that route.
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Hockey Widow » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:33 am

Skyo this has been so talked to death already in other threads.

Unless the Canucks decide to not play for a playoff position what you advocate won't happen, not all at once. But over the course of the next two years all those players you noted will be gone, except Tanev and Edler.

Trymakin by the way is a LHD but prefers the right side. The team wants him back on his natural side. So part of his slowness out of the box was related to him playing on the LD position, couple with being not in game shape.

Crimes, at the end of this year Burrows and Miller are gone. That leaves Hansen and the twins done the year after. Of those five players only Hansen has real value and arguable is a player they would keep for veteran leadership. Miller only has value now, he won't at the TDD, unless a contender is worried about their number one's health status. Really not much coming back. Burrows may garner a 2nd. See, not much there.

So now to your point of possible trading two of or possible all three of Tanev, Edler, Sbisa. Really? Only going to happen if the Canucks decide to tank. While we're at it then let's move Dorsett. Oh wait, we have to keep enough players to fulfill the expansion draft quotas at each position or risk having to expose Gudbranson. It's a little more complicated right now.

But I get where you are coming from. You want the slowly removing the bandage to stop and you want the final quarter ripped off. But why do we keep talking about it when we know that's not what the Canucks are going to do. Now if they are out of it by the TDD they might just try to trade Burrows, maybe Hansen, maybe Sbisa and maybe they get ballsy depending upon how all our D play by then, and move a Tanev or Edler.

But we aren't getting much back for that lot. Yes Tanev or Edler are our best shot at a decent return.

Hutton is going to be a good one on the LD, some day. Juolevi hasn't played a game yet and Trymankin has to show he can play at this level on the LD position. Pedan can play but I see him as a bottom pairing.

Gudbranson can be the anchore on RD. Stetcher is just a baby. Larson is Larson. Subban hasn't earned the confidence to even get a recall.

We have a few more D in the system but way to early to project out.

If we trade Miller who backs up Markstrom? Bachman? Yes of course because we want to tank.

This is not a good team. Maybe the playoffs but knocked out 1st round. But the tank approach for a full rebuild sets us back 5 years. I will wager, metaphorically, that if we are so far out of it at the TDD we will see a lot of movement as you have suggested but not before then.

Over the summer the Canucks had an opportunity to trade for a young top six. But they felt the price was too high. It was contentious as there were strong differing opinions. If anything I see that being revisited first before we see a bigger purge. But we won't ever go the Toronto or Buffalo approach.
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Uncle dans leg » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:56 am

Well year 1 of the tank is already under our belts. 2 more seasons(including this one) with the turtle twins leading should land us more top 5 picks then maybe another 2 shitty seasons and bingo...back baby
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Reefer2 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:08 am

Waiting to make deal at the TDD is wrong IMO.

The team is already out of the playoffs.

The vegas draft is the kicker in the nuts, it screws up the rebuild.

Trade Edler, give us the biggest return. Not sure how well Tanev is known by other teams.
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Aaronp18 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:44 am

SKYO wrote:Alrighty folks it's come to down to this, I know the word patience is thrown around a lot here, but honestly lets face the facts.

If anyone knows me around here it was that I was a heavy optimist for this team, I had high hopes that with a healthy team, the youth getting better, defense fixed up and the stable goaltending that we would be playoff team.

But lo and behold what was expected and overlooked was the Sedins aging and Eriksson not producing - Tre Konor points like a true #1 line, sure they got some points but for the most part they remain invisible if not for the powerplay.

Sedins at their age should now be 2nd liners and get 2nd line minutes, it's just a fact with NHL Cup teams that none have their #1 line with two elders on it.

There are no game breakers on this team, still a lot of unknowns with the youth.

Sutter is a rock solid #3C who can play spot #2C.

Horvat on a good team would still be a #3C, even Granlund imo would be good #3C guy or winger (generous at this point), so basically we have three 3rd line centers and a solid 2nd line.

Another overlooked area was the coaching, the hope was Jarvis would add some respectability to WD's lack of NHL experience coaching skills, but that's fading as we go on this losing streak.

I believe this could be Willie's last year here along with Lidster, if the team continues to flounder Benning will have a tough situation to figure out, have an interim coach or bring up Green or wait till the season is mercifully over an hire a new coach.

But ultimately what this team needs is to start unloading vets for picks and prospects, it's just ripping the band-aid off quick and dirty to speed up the process and let the youth gain more minutes and development time, because even with the vets "mentors" here, we are still losing, not what the doctor ordered for this retooling team.

I'd say JB could/should do a couple things besides unloading some vets that have value right now, it's possibly selling high on Tanev, the haul could be great for a rebuilding team, it's only thanks to having Stecher come out of nowhere and Gudbranson that we have the luxury of trading a great dman such as Tanev.
Plus we should simply let Tryamkin play and learn now (another right side dman), so we'll be better off for it next season. Our right side has Stecher, Gudbranson, Tryamkin and Larsen, all decent on a rebuild, so letting Tanev go for good return up front would be fine and dandy by me.

Other vets with value that should be traded for picks/prospects: Hansen, Miller (SJ, LA or Dallas), Sbisa (HW said a few teams interested for a pick), Burrows dealt at deadline (50%) and maybe Edler (if the price is right, but if we are dealing Tanev, maybe we keep Eddie till Juolevi is ready as our left side is really thin compared to our right side).

It's time to let go of the dream for this season, lets move in the right direction of a rebuild, all while keeping the Sedins here (NMC, 1 1/2 years left), unmovable contracts, be a nice gesture, they aren't hurting the tank if we go that route.


Just didn't know when to stop eating all that candy did you Skyo? :mrgreen:
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Lancer » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:27 am

Hockey Widow wrote:Oh wait, we have to keep enough players to fulfill the expansion draft quotas at each position or risk having to expose Gudbranson. It's a little more complicated right now.


Wids has, I think, hit on a more treacherous point regarding trying to rebuild the Canucks this year - the expansion draft. The Canucks are not alone in trying to position themselves adequately for the expansion draft and a lot of teams may not be willing to do anything drastic even with scrubs if they're eligible.

Management is clearly engaging in Orwellian double-think with regard to the rebuild. They know they have to get younger and move the team into the post-Sedin era - which means bringing in young talent, and drafting high gives them a better shot at that and all the losing that will entail. At the same time, they believe that the market won't survive them pulling a Toronto/Edmonton so they don't want to give anybody - players or fans - the idea that they're throwing in the towel and saying they still aim to make the playoffs.

It's admirable in a way - the lengths management will go to avoid anybody getting used to sucking, no matter what light may appear at the end of that road. It's like they wouldn't mind finishing 30th, as long as they keep trying to finish 16th.

May as well give up, love Big Brother, and cheer for them to win - even when part of us knows they will likely lose and would be okay with that. :drink:
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby micky107 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:04 am

Everything said here has been said many times in may ways by many people in their own ways countless times.
This current road trip should be a blast to watch because it should make very clear where the brightest spots are and where there is doom and gloom, at least on this current roster, at this time.

I'm guessing there may well be a press conference of some kind upon returning home.

I said yesterday, latch on to your personal heroes and root for them because that's what you gotta do when your team as a whole is so far away from drinking the bubbly from that big cup. ;)
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Topper » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:23 am

Aaronp18 wrote:
SKYO wrote:drivel


Just didn't know when to stop eating all that candy did you Skyo? :mrgreen:

LOL
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Tiger » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:53 pm

Chicken LItle said :

/The Skyo is falling !
The Skyo is falling !


Bullshit .. we all knew this was going to be a tough year.. but your negative crap is not your usual style..
1) in the last 4 games we have been short 3 regulars.. Tanev, Dorsett and Burrows and played against superior teams ..
2) Our young guns are slowly improving and hopefully Ericson and Baertchi will get their scoring touch back.. Saddling Ericsen with the Sedins did not work.. kind of like putting a fast thoroughbred with 2 plow horses ..
3) Jarvs is a defensive coach.. and our D and goaltending is not the problem.. we are 13th and 14th in Goals against and Penalty kill ..
4) Our problem is PP and first line.. 28th in PP and 30th in goals for... Thank Gillis for leaving us with a 20 million dollar 1st line that is over the hill .. Not a fuck of a lot can be done until we get rid of that boat anchor contract to the Sedins and Burrows..,
5 ) Willie cant make shicken soup out of chicken shit.. Trading away our best players who are the real mentors to the team wont help..
Suck it up Skyo and enjoy watching the kids improve...This team will not be a contender until the Sedins are gone !
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Island Nucklehead » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:39 pm

Tiger wrote: Chicken LItle said :

/The Skyo is falling !
The Skyo is falling !


Bullshit .. we all knew this was going to be a tough year.. but your negative crap is not your usual style..
1) in the last 4 games we have been short 3 regulars.. Tanev, Dorsett and Burrows and played against superior teams ..
2) Our young guns are slowly improving and hopefully Ericson and Baertchi will get their scoring touch back.. Saddling Ericsen with the Sedins did not work.. kind of like putting a fast thoroughbred with 2 plow horses ..
3) Jarvs is a defensive coach.. and our D and goaltending is not the problem.. we are 13th and 14th in Goals against and Penalty kill ..
4) Our problem is PP and first line.. 28th in PP and 30th in goals for... Thank Gillis for leaving us with a 20 million dollar 1st line that is over the hill .. Not a fuck of a lot can be done until we get rid of that boat anchor contract to the Sedins and Burrows..,
5 ) Willie cant make shicken soup out of chicken shit.. Trading away our best players who are the real mentors to the team wont help..
Suck it up Skyo and enjoy watching the kids improve...This team will not be a contender until the Sedins are gone !


Yeah, those Sedins are the problem. It's not the donuts being put up by Eriksson and Baertschi in the G category, or Edler's and Hutton's combined 2 points.

Nope, it's the 36 year old work-horses that are still being relied upon to drive an entire NHL teams offensive output, better flush them. We would've been much better off with Andrew Ladd and David Backes on 5-7 year deals.

The one thing ditching the Sedins would help with is our draft position. Without them we'd have a hard time hitting 100 goals on the season.
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Meds » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:47 pm

Here is why I think that they should sell high on Tanev.

He's an uber responsible defender, but he brings next to nothing offensively. Ideally you want your top pairing guys to have the ability to contribute to the attack. Tanev has not shown that he is capable of this as of yet. Gudbranson has looked every bit his defensive equal, is bigger, stronger, and prefers a more physical game. Stecher looks very good. If Tanev could return us a legitimate top-6 forward under the age of 27, then it should get done.

This leads to Edler's expendability soon thereafter.

Edler has NOT been a reliable top pairing defenseman with anyone other than Ehrhoff and Tanev. He is still a top-4 guy, but better suited to the second pairing position where there is a little less pressure on him.

I don't think these moves can happen this year though because, as HW points out, we have an expansion draft looming and need to prepare for that.

Here's what I do see this year at this point.....

JB has been put in a spot where he has a VERY tough call to make in our crease. Markstrom is looking much better this year, but I have my doubts as to whether or not he is ready to shoulder the load for 50-60 games with a young back-up. Due to injuries on other teams in our division, Miller's value has never been higher since coming to the Canucks. If there is a way for Benning to shove "no playoffs in 2017" down the Aqua-Bros throats, AND if he can find a veteran goalie who can handle 30-35 games and not be a total disaster, then he very much needs to talk trade with Miller and explore the possibility of moving him to LA. At this point I think LA gives up their 1st and possible sends back Budaj in the package. Budaj is a very capable backup goaltender, he has experience and a reputation of being a Team-First kind of guy. It might mean sending Miller + meh prospect or 5th rounder the other way, but who cares if it means an extra 1st.

Why this trade makes sense for the Canucks.....

We aren't a team that will do ANY kind of damage in the playoffs, even if we end up hitting the lottery that see's injuries to other teams that cause them to fall big time in the standings. No matter what, the Canucks are a team that plays a maximum of 6 playoff games this year.

When you consider the Western Conference, the Kings, even with Miller or Quick, are probably a team that could still miss the playoffs by a hair, or they squeak in. Their 1st rounder this year could very easily end up being in the top 14 spots of the draft.....they won't consider a trade like this for much longer if their fortunes start to wane further.

Why this trade makes sense for Miller (NTC).....

Last year of contract. It's early in the season and not at the TDL where he has next to no time to re-acclimate. His wife lives there.

Why this trade makes sense fo LA.....

They are a team who could see their window closing in a year or two. If there is one more kick at the can for them that is worth a 1st round pick it is this season. They are only 1 point out of a wild card spot, but their goal differential is -6 and they can't win on the road. Road games are quite often the place where the veteran presence of an experienced goaltender makes the biggest difference.
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Reefer2 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:19 pm

I love the bed wetters who nay say anyone with a different opinion.

Not all the deals have to happen BUT 1-2 deals should go down and it may involve someone like Edler or Tanev or Miller. Yes the draft is coming up and maybe there is a chance we lose someone but sometimes you have to take a chance to get something that can change this franchise quicker.
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby Tciso » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:40 pm

Reefer2 wrote:I love the bed wetters who nay say anyone with a different opinion.

Not all the deals have to happen BUT 1-2 deals should go down and it may involve someone like Edler or Tanev or Miller. Yes the draft is coming up and maybe there is a chance we lose someone but sometimes you have to take a chance to get something that can change this franchise quicker.


We can always demand a guy who qualifies for the draft back in return as well. Nothing says we have to only take picks or prospects.......
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby micky107 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:40 pm

Watching all the highlights around the league. Seems like goals are adding up more now.
Maybe trading Miller isn't such a ridiculous idea.
Thing is, if you want max value for him, the TD is too late.

The other thing is, in reality, we don't need A goal scorer, we need two or so.
It's not just Daniel's goals, we have never truly replaced Kesler's or Burrow's goals.
Actually, we've not replaced Erhoff's or Salo's point shots.
Gees, we need goals.
1.5 to 1.8 per game isn't very "entertaining" mmm
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Re: The Rebuild...

Postby SKYO » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:26 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:If we trade Miller who backs up Markstrom? Bachman? Yes of course because we want to tank.


micky107 wrote:Watching all the highlights around the league. Seems like goals are adding up more now.
Maybe trading Miller isn't such a ridiculous idea.
Thing is, if you want max value for him, the TD is too late.


Kings in huge trouble in goal. Huge trouble.

Jack Campbell in net for LA. Budaj 12/16. Campbell's second career appearance. Other appearance was with DAL at ANA early in 2013-14.


Even the JB haters admit he's a good draft guy, so why not pick up more picks with by selling off a few veterans? team should be sellers this year, trade millsy and get the troubling Budaj as backup, plus a 2nd and a cap hit guy like King.

Hockey Widow wrote:This is not a good team. Maybe the playoffs but knocked out 1st round.But the tank approach for a full rebuild sets us back 5 years. I will wager, metaphorically, that if we are so far out of it at the TDD we will see a lot of movement as you have suggested but not before then.


Not saying sell everyone, I'm saying if we only sell off Hansen, Miller, and one of Edler or Tanev we'd be fine next season, it's a good year to sell early, especially before anyone gets injured like Vrbata and Hamhuis did last year.

Having said that the only way to keep most of everyone is by making a good 'hockey deal' for a young center with good upside, yes even though JB keeps saying all summer and fall he wants a gritty top 6 winger.

Anyways seems the most logical deal to make right now is by targeting teams that are struggling and could really use one of Edler or Tanev, and with us having some depth on the right and to help fulfill our needs for a top 6, trading one of em for help up front seems the most logical.
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