The Great Jim Benning Debate!

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DonCherry4PM
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by DonCherry4PM » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:30 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm
DonCherry4PM wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:14 pm
For your submission to hold any water, I would suggest that you exercise care and provide some form or supporting evidence.
The many reasons to believe have been posted many times in this forum.
Ah, so this is our methodology for presenting supportive evidence. Well then, the many reasons to believe you do not “avoid extremes of boldness” have also been posted many times in this forum. With that level of evidence being the standard, it would appear that neither of us is a “reasonable person”. Sadly, that does not equate to JB being a Genius nor the alternative.
Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm
DonCherry4PM wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:14 pm
That being said, whether or not I am a reasonable person is immaterial as to whether my argument is valid, unless of course you believe in the logical validity of ad hominem arguments.
Whether or not you are reasonable in this matter has everything to do with this. :eh:

See, you were trying to set yourself up as some kind of impartial judge of reasonableness.
Contrary to your misunderstanding, my argument is that a “reasonable person” would require more evidence than what has been presented thus far in order to agree that JB is, in fact, a Genius.
Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm
BTW if it is an “ad hominem argument” to question an opponent’s reasonableness in a debate

… then I must point out those four fingers of yours pointing directly back at yourself sir.

YOU are the one who started us down this road with "A reasonable person would believe..."
My argument is that that a “reasonable person” would require more evidence than what has been presented thus far in order to agree that JB is, in fact, a Genius. Hence, the mirror image of my argument is that a person who, based on the evidence presented thus far, proclaims JB to be a Genius is an “unreasonable person” (in this matter). I can’t help it if, by default, that makes you an “unreasonable person” (in this matter). Now if I were to say, “you are an unreasonable person and therefore your argument is wrong”, that would be an ad hominem (and invalid) argument.

Your being an “unreasonable person” (or not) doesn’t make your arguments wrong or right. Evidence is what makes your arguments right or wrong. And as noted above, our current standard of evidence (i.e. “many reasons to believe have been posted many times in this forum “) would seem to allow for both sides to be right and wrong at the same time.
Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm
DonCherry4PM wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:14 pm
The supporting evidence you provide (i.e. providing nebulous predictions) to uphold the statement that you are "avoiding extremes of boldness" is relevant but easily countered by your insistence on proclaiming JB a "Genius" without showing evidence that he is above (or even equal to) the level of the average NHL GM. I would submit that such proclamation is indeed evidence taking an "extreme of boldness".
So you agree that my predictions are reasonable. Good.

Nope. Being relevant is one thing. Saying they are reasonable is quite another.
Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm
But moving on…

The “evidence” of Lord Benning’s genius has been posted many times in this forum.

This evidence makes my conclusion reasonable.
Just as the evidence against such premise has also “been posted many times in this forum”. It appears that with such a low standard of evidence, we shall not make any headway in this argument. Perhaps instead, we should try to find some common ground as to what we each believe a “reasonable person” would require to proclaim JB a Genius?

Dispensing with our standard of evidence for the moment, would you agree that for a “reasonable person” to proclaim JB a Genius, such “reasonable person” would need to see evidence indicating that JB was doing a significantly better job than an average NHL GM?
Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm
Meanwhile we have already established that YOU are unreasonable in this matter...

(you refuse to put any faith in the rebuild, you are "not avoiding extremes of carefulness")

So it... A P P E A R S... that reasonable people believe that Lord Benning is a genius. :mex:
Only established, if our flimsy standard of evidence remains. Or perhaps I should just argue that evidence of my own reasonableness in this matter has “been posted many times in this forum”.

With respect to your argument that I “refuse to put any faith in the rebuild”, I have actually been on record quite a few times in stating that I am a fan of JB’s work from last year’s trade deadline coming forward and with a fair amount of his other drafting. My criticism of other portions of his tenure does not equate to having no faith in the rebuild, it just means I don’t interpret JB’s overall tenure as being evidence of a “Genius”.

Please ensure you are in an upright seated position for this……………… but I would actually be okay (and would even prefer) extending JB’s contract given (what I consider to be) improvement as evidenced by his body of work over the past year, subject to the extension’s terms of course.
Invincibility lies in oneself.
Vincibility lies in the enemy.

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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by ESQ » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:23 pm

This thread seems to have veered more into the "Debate" and away from the "Jim Benning"...

And its miles and miles from "Great".

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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by Cornuck » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:28 pm

ESQ wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:23 pm
This thread seems to have veered more into the "Debate" and away from the "Jim Benning"...

And its miles and miles from "Great".
It's like debating on the Windows status bar.... You know what should be coming, but it could crash at some point.....
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DonCherry4PM
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by DonCherry4PM » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:12 pm

Apologies to all (Strange included) if I got a little overzealous there. :oops:
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by Strangelove » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:14 pm

DonCherry4PM wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:30 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm
DonCherry4PM wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:14 pm
That being said, whether or not I am a reasonable person is immaterial as to whether my argument is valid, unless of course you believe in the logical validity of ad hominem arguments.
Whether or not you are reasonable in this matter has everything to do with this. :eh:

See, you were trying to set yourself up as some kind of impartial judge of reasonableness.
Contrary to your misunderstanding, my argument is that a “reasonable person” would require more evidence than what has been presented thus far in order to agree that JB is, in fact, a Genius.
There was no misunderstanding.

The point was that if YOU are "unreasonable" then there would be no convincing you.

Because there would never be enough "evidence" for an unreasonable person.

For example, what if I were to state that Beethoven was a genius

... and some unreasonable person came along and said "No he wasn't".

I could play Symphony No. 9 for this person... but he would say that doesn't prove anything.

I could play all of Beethoven's symphonies... but the guy wouldn't budge, why?

Because he is unreasonable.

All I can do is ask that people listen to the music that Lord Benning is playing...
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by Strangelove » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:18 pm

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:46 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:26 pm
LMAO... if only it were so simple Cliffy!

Wins = Genius. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You just can't stop with all your "we" stuff, so hilarious...
If genius from a hockey manager is not reflected in wins -- and ultimately, championships -- how else would it manifest ?
Let's say a few years have gone by and the Canucks have won a coupla Cups with Jimbro at the helm.

At that point many folks would be proclaiming Jimbro a genius.

Would that mean he wasn't a genius a few years before that?

No... it would in fact prove that he was a genius all along!

(except to unreasonable people of course)

Identity from the top, draft picks made, development, timing, players added/subtracted, trades, resignings...

The winning comes after the masterful rebuild.

If you can't appreciate the big beautiful painting until every last stroke has been added, I can't help you Cliffy.

All I can do is ask that people try to see the magnificent masterpiece Jimbro is painting...
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by Todd Bersnoozi » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:35 pm

RoyalDude wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:02 pm
JimBro's Genius drafting was on full display today coming via the Price/Sekeras Team 1040 show when their Special Guest Adam Gaudette layed to rest any notion of him possibly entertaining the idea of going back to college next year to become a free agent.
Thnx dood. Here is the interview in entirety

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/audio/gaudette ... m-1.977890

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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by DonCherry4PM » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:49 pm

Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:14 pm
There was no misunderstanding.
So, to reiterate, would you agree that for a “reasonable person” to proclaim JB a Genius, such “reasonable person” would need to see evidence indicating that JB was doing a significantly better job than an average NHL GM? (or, by your analogy, would a "reasonable person" need to "hear" evidence indicating that composer(X) was doing a significantly better job than an average composer in order for that person to be able to proclaim that composer(X) was indeed a "Genius"?)
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Vincibility lies in the enemy.

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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by Strangelove » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:00 pm

DonCherry4PM wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:49 pm
So, to reiterate, would you agree that for a “reasonable person” to proclaim JB a Genius, such “reasonable person” would need to see evidence indicating that JB was doing a significantly better job than an average NHL GM? (or, by your analogy, would a "reasonable person" need to "hear" evidence indicating that composer(X) was doing a significantly better job than an average composer in order for that person to be able to proclaim that composer(X) was indeed a "Genius"?)
That was the longest sentence in CanucksCorner history... congratulations!! :lol:

Now try to relax and just listen to the music Lord Benning is playing...
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:44 am

Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:18 pm
Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:46 pm
Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:26 pm
LMAO... if only it were so simple Cliffy!

Wins = Genius. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You just can't stop with all your "we" stuff, so hilarious...
If genius from a hockey manager is not reflected in wins -- and ultimately, championships -- how else would it manifest ?
Let's say a few years have gone by and the Canucks have won a coupla Cups with Jimbro at the helm.

At that point many folks would be proclaiming Jimbro a genius.

Would that mean he wasn't a genius a few years before that?

No... it would in fact prove that he was a genius all along!
We have always agreed on this point.

And if a few years go by, and the Canucks haven't won a couple of Cups, what would that prove ?

Either way, it is necessary to collect the evidence (Cups, or lack thereof) to make the determination.
Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:18 pm

The winning comes after the masterful rebuild.....

All I can do is ask that people try to see the magnificent masterpiece Jimbro is painting...
Sure, and if there is no winning, then there was no Masterpiece. Hence my assertion that more data (i.e. wins after the rebuild is complete -- next year was it ?) is required to declare that Jim Benning is a hockey management genius. Yes, that will mean that he was a genius the whole time, but the evidence isn't in yet.

But it seems we agree: we need evidence of a Masterpiece (Championships) to conclude that the painter/composer/architect was (yes, all along) a genius. If that evidence appears, you can rightly claim you were ahead of the curve and saw it in the mix of the pigments, the first chords of the overture, the layout of the scaffolding and cut of the stones. I want to see the Masterpiece before I proclaim genius.

The open question is how many seasons is a fair shot at it before we say "That's it, give up, you're just smearing paint around the canvas -- now give someone else a try" ?

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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by DonCherry4PM » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:54 am

+1 to that RG.

A much more eloquent response than I had in mind.
Invincibility lies in oneself.
Vincibility lies in the enemy.

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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by micky107 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:59 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:02 pm
JimBro's Genius drafting was on full display today coming via the Price/Sekeras Team 1040 show when their Special Guest Adam Gaudette layed to rest any notion of him possibly entertaining the idea of going back to college next year to become a free agent. Mentioning honourng the Canucks for drafting him, giving him a chance, while the other 29 teams passed over him for 5 rounds. The leading scorer of the NCAA and Hobey Baker Nominee also mentioned that him and Boeser (2015 draft class mate) are good friends and talk all the time. This guy is s beaut, JimBro's drafting is pure genius! What a steal. After 6 years of shite embarrassing drafting under the Gillis regime, JimBro Benning is da shit!
Thanks !! That made my day.
Thank you too, Todd for putting up the link..
"evolution"

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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by Reefer2 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:35 am

DonCherry4PM wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:54 am
+1 to that RG.

A much more eloquent response than I had in mind.
+2

Honestly don’t worry about SL, he absolutely lives for these types of debates.

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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by Strangelove » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:26 pm

Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:44 am
Strangelove wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:18 pm
Let's say a few years have gone by and the Canucks have won a coupla Cups with Jimbro at the helm.

At that point many folks would be proclaiming Jimbro a genius.

Would that mean he wasn't a genius a few years before that?

No... it would in fact prove that he was a genius all along!
We have always agreed on this point.
So you agree that Jimbro may in fact be a genius TODAY.

Good.
Ronning's Ghost wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:44 am
it is necessary to collect the evidence (Cups, or lack thereof) to make the determination...

Hence my assertion that more data is required to declare that Jim Benning is a hockey management genius...

Yes, that will mean that he was a genius the whole time, but the evidence isn't in yet...

we need evidence of a Masterpiece (Championships) to conclude that the painter/composer/architect was (yes, all along) a genius.

If that evidence appears, you can rightly claim you were ahead of the curve and saw it in the mix of the pigments, the first chords of the overture, the layout of the scaffolding and cut of the stones. I want to see the Masterpiece before I proclaim genius.
And here is where "we" :D disagree.

I see enough evidence to proclaim him a genius TODAY.

You don't... c'est la vie.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You have been working hard around here trying to reach some kind of a... consensus

... as to when folks should feel free to proclaim him a genius.

All this "we" stuff. :lol:

Well guess what, this "beholder" will never agree to such a thing!

I'll say it again.

LORD BENNING IS A GENIUS!!!

Listen, I hope one day you get all the data/evidence you need Cliffy

... but that's not my problem brother.
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate!

Post by Strangelove » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:34 pm

DonCherry4PM wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:54 am
A much more eloquent response than I had in mind.
I'm glad Cliffy stepped in then!

Never post angry my friend...
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