The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

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Chef Boi RD
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Chef Boi RD »

Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:01 pm
Tciso wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:02 am Miller's contributions also bumped that 1st round pick from a top 10 lottery pick to the #20 pick. (oops, I forgot about the 3rd rounder, and Marek MaSparePart - still a cheap trade.)
That was actually part of the point. Because Miller made the team better, the Canucks' 2020 draft pick isn't as good. So while Miller made the 2020 Canucks better, at this point it looks to me like he is making the 2024 Canucks (close to peak years of the new core) worse.

And that's why I'm still questioning the Miller Trade. Not that it wasn't good value, but that the timing was wrong.
Cherry Picker wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:55 am I can’t believe people would still question the Miller trade. It’s a win now and going forward.
Right now if they traded Miller they could get back a first round pick, a very good prospect, and a good NHL player at minimum.
If all you are worried about are assets (like draft picks), the trade was great asset management, a clear win.
In hindsight, any GM in the league would be a complete idiot not to make that trade.
Of course, the Canucks won’t trade Miller away because he is too hard to replace. However, the value of the assets trading him away could bring back going forward would be an important contributor by the time the new core is at its peak, if he, himself is no longer with the team.
If Benning actually pulled a pump 'n' dump on Miller, he'd take a step closer to genius in my books. But as you say, he likely won't, so we can talk about it if it happens.

I suspect Benning was told that the Canucks really shouldn't suck for the 50th anniversary season, and he had to do what he could about it. It was a fun playoff run, and I'm sure we all enjoyed it. Reflect on this and see if it gives you comfort if the Canucks fall short in 2024.
So the Buffalo Sabres model?

They are about to draft their 8th top 8 lottery draft pick in a row. And before those 8 a whole bunch of Kassians, Myers, Armias, Girgensens and Grigirenkos.

Yessiree, a recipe for success to continually and foreverly build through the draft

Eventually, somewhere along the way you have to put the brakes on the losing culture as it’s a damn bitch to pull out of

Also RG, the Canucks still have intriguing assets in the pipeline

Podkolzin
Hoglander
Tryamkin
Juolevi
Lind
DiPietro
Rathbone
Woo
Lockwood
Keppen
Focht
McDonaugh
Rafferty

That’s enough dude
DOYLE WOULD’VE RATHER HAD KEVIN HAYES AT 7 YEARS 7 MILLION PER INSTEAD OF J.T. MILLER FOR A LATE 1ST RD PICK
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Ronning's Ghost »

ESQ wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:55 am
Fair opinion, however I would say what got the Canucks past the Wild and the Blues? Their depth.
To me, the Blues series was a very old, very simple hockey story: The Canucks got playoff quality goaltending, and the Blues didn't. And fair enough, the goalie is part of the team, and Benning can take credit for re-signing Markstrom and drafting and developing Demko. But I think the Canucks' goalies in the playoffs made the rest of the team look better than it really was.
Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:38 am Right now, though, he remains tied with Milford, Neale, Gillis, and the rest at zero.
ESQ wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:55 am He's also tied with Sakic, the Oilers' five GMs during their rebuild, and well ahead of the Sabres, Senators, and the Shanaplan.
I'm still counting zero Stanley Cups for all rebuilds. What metric are you using?
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by ESQ »

Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:01 pm
I suspect Benning was told that the Canucks really shouldn't suck for the 50th anniversary season, and he had to do what he could about it. It was a fun playoff run, and I'm sure we all enjoyed it. Reflect on this and see if it gives you comfort if the Canucks fall short in 2024.
Could be - I suspect Benning targeted an undervalued asset on a cap-stricken team, and pulled the trigger. If he was just trying to make the 50th anniversary not suck, he'd have gotten Hall or Barrie or some splashier trade target. Instead, he got the perfect piece for this team.

You could chose to believe it was dumb luck (as you do), or you could choose to believe (as I do) that this move fits his overarching strategy of the past five years.
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by ESQ »

Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:17 pm
I'm still counting zero Stanley Cups for all rebuilds. What metric are you using?
How far into the playoffs they've gone after rebuilding. Even though *technically* the Canucks won two playoff rounds, which actually exceeds Colorado's post season performances since beginning their rebuild in 2008.
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Ronning's Ghost »

Chef Boi RD wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:08 pm

Yessiree, a recipe for success to continually and foreverly build through the draft

Eventually, somewhere along the way you have to put the brakes on the losing culture as it’s a damn bitch to pull out of
Is there a reason that couldn't be accomplished by spending free agent money on free agents who could actually help the team win?
Chef Boi RD wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:08 pm
Also RG, the Canucks still have intriguing assets in the pipeline

Podkolzin
Hoglander
Tryamkin
Juolevi
Lind
DiPietro
Rathbone
Woo
Lockwood
Keppen
Focht
McDonaugh
Rafferty

That’s enough dude
Well, maybe. I've had lots of time to research good crow recipes to enjoy while watching that 3rd Stanley Cup parade if it is.
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Ronning's Ghost »

ESQ wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:19 pm
Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:01 pm
I suspect Benning was told that the Canucks really shouldn't suck for the 50th anniversary season, and he had to do what he could about it. It was a fun playoff run, and I'm sure we all enjoyed it. Reflect on this and see if it gives you comfort if the Canucks fall short in 2024.
Could be - I suspect Benning targeted an undervalued asset on a cap-stricken team, and pulled the trigger. If he was just trying to make the 50th anniversary not suck, he'd have gotten Hall or Barrie or some splashier trade target. Instead, he got the perfect piece for this team.

You could chose to believe it was dumb luck (as you do), or you could choose to believe (as I do) that this move fits his overarching strategy of the past five years.
Those aren't the only options. I give Benning full credit for identifying an underperforming asset and getting him at a reasonable value, but I also question the timing, i.e. whatever the overarching strategy of the past five years might have been. (Although I'm also willing to give Benning credit for running a 'stealth tank', if that's what actually happened.)
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Chef Boi RD »

Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:23 pm
Chef Boi RD wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:08 pm

Yessiree, a recipe for success to continually and foreverly build through the draft

Eventually, somewhere along the way you have to put the brakes on the losing culture as it’s a damn bitch to pull out of
Is there a reason that couldn't be accomplished by spending free agent money on free agents who could actually help the team win?
Chef Boi RD wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:08 pm
Also RG, the Canucks still have intriguing assets in the pipeline

Podkolzin
Hoglander
Tryamkin
Juolevi
Lind
DiPietro
Rathbone
Woo
Lockwood
Keppen
Focht
McDonaugh
Rafferty

That’s enough dude
Well, maybe. I've had lots of time to research good crow recipes to enjoy while watching that 3rd Stanley Cup parade if it is.
You’re pretty negative towards a team that beat the Wild in the round robin and the Blues in the first round and took the Knights to 7 games but according to you only because of goaltending. Meanwhile I just noticed on the playoff scoring leader board that:

Pettersson is 4th with 7 goals 11 assists
Miller is 6th with 6 goals 12 assists
Hughes is 11th with 2 goals 14 assists

And Horvat has 10 goals 2 assists
And Boeser had 4 goals 7 assists

An Amazing goaltending tandem

A real dire future I’m seeing. Maybe you should stop wasting your time on a product you don’t like, let those who like it enjoy it and fuck off and try on the Oilers or Sabres or Maple Leaves for size. Maybe they are more up your alley.

It’s really sad that you and your HF alumn can’t seem to get past your Beagles, Eriksson’s and Sutters. If you could you might actually enjoy this, life is short, there’s a lot to like here, Sunshine
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Meds »

Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:17 pm
I'm still counting zero Stanley Cups for all rebuilds. What metric are you using?
In general it is safe to say there are probably 8-10 teams in the league every year that are "rebuilding".

There are another 6-8 that one might consider "complete" and have a shot at contention on paper.

Then there are 13-17 that are "building" and looking to improve.

With few exceptions every team cycles through these categories over and over.....plenty of them don't win a Cup, but are damned good teams, entertaining to watch, and usually just come out on the short end of a series due to bounces and injuries.

One team wins the Stanley Cup.

There have been 12 different Cup winners over the last 19 years.

Every year 30 teams compete (31 for the past 2), which is 572 rosters all in the mix at one stage or another, and only 12 of them have succeeded.

That's a 2% success rate.

Seems like a stupid metric for qualifying a successful rebuild.
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Richardstroker69 »

It doesn’t matter if he pumps and dumps (he most likely would if the team was out of playoff contention at the deadline in his ufa year and miller is re signing), he owns the asset, he can do whatever is best for the team. He’s shown numerous times the last 3 years he does what’s best for the team especially the young guys.
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Strangelove »

Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:38 am I would certainly concede that Benning is a solid hockey man doing a good job
That's one small step for a boobird, one giant leap for boobirdkind.

Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:38 am Sort of a von Manstein figure (without implying that either he or the Little Eagles are Nazis -- just the same relative command and talent structure).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Manstein

"Liddell Hart was an admirer of the German generals; he described Manstein as an operational genius."

Y'know Cliffy, when you finally come to realize Lord Benning is a genius, it'll be too late.

Everyone will be all like "Duh, tell us something we don't know ya tard!"

Then, for all eternity, you will be relegated to licking the boots of those who knew it all along.
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Ronning's Ghost »

Strangelove wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:51 pm
"Liddell Hart was an admirer of the German generals; he described Manstein as an operational genius."
And in the same way that being an operational genius is still somewhat short of being a military genius, if the years prove that Benning was a drafting genius, that's still some distance from being a hockey management genius.

Chef Boi RD wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:56 pm Maybe you should stop wasting your time on a product you don’t like, let those who like it enjoy it and fuck off
Top line, original post:
Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:38 am Honest to the Hockey Gawds, my plan was to shut up about this and let you just enjoy a nice payoff run, but some of you had to blow your genius horn, and at least this one last time, I will answer.
But I've said my piece for now, and shan't haunt you for some time.
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

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Oh I’m haunted alright, really bothered.

So you sat idling biding your time like a well behaved respecter of others until the eventual knockout to then come back with the “see I told you so” shit? How mighty of you, how predictable of you. We are shocked, really :shock:
Last edited by Chef Boi RD on Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Strangelove »

Ronning's Ghost wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:58 pm But I've said my piece for now, and shat
:mrgreen:
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Carl Yagro »

Chef Boi RD wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:03 pm Oh I’m haunted alright, really bothered.

So you sat idling biding your time like a well behaved respecter of others until the eventual knockout to then come back with the “see I told you so” shit? How mighty of you, how predictable of you. We are shocked, really :shock:
No kidding, eh?

RG is so triggered when someone posts JB and genius in the same paragraph (that's why we do it). Barely participated in any discussions this season or during this run... BUTT comes back the very next morning to blow his own horn.

"Honest to the Hockey Gawds, my plan was to shut up about this... blah, blah... at least this one last time..."

LOL, last time shutting up, wot?

HF Boards is more up his alleyway.
Try to focus on THIS year...
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Re: The Great Jim Benning Debate! (And personal insult thread)

Post by Strangelove »

Carl Yagro wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:31 pm RG is so triggered when someone posts JB and genius in the same paragraph (that's why we do it).
SHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhh.... :mrgreen:
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