First round picks

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micky107
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Re: First round picks

Post by micky107 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:07 pm

Maybe Edmonton is a bad choice for comparison but not because their picks were over rated. In my opinion, the wealth of talent they have drafted is outrageous. They should have thought more about defense but I for one do not think they have turned the corner. There is a syndrome going on there maybe because of poor development or maybe way too much pressure on young stars in the same age group. A good shrink might help! Better get one before Mcdavid falls into the abyss. The new building will help them. That old thing is the 2 year younger sister to our old coliseum. Note; Taylor Hall has simply had mega pressure put on him and when he feels it they all seem to. My point was you have to have people in place to find the not so obvious picks as well...
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Re: First round picks

Post by SKYO » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:36 pm

We got two of those high value picks in 2nd / 3rd overall - Sedins, just have to build around them. :P

In any case, it's good scouting/developing overall, with good trades and key ufa signings in the big picture that will win you Championships, not just a one off fluky season.

The trajectory we're heading into though we are playing vs a lot of good/playoff teams so we should be getting a high pick at this rate. (top 4)

The last few games in April though oil/flamerz/oil will decide our fate. :o
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Re: First round picks

Post by Strangelove » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:37 pm

Mondi wrote:
micky107 wrote: High first round picks are a great start in building or rebuilding a team but it takes more, look at Edmonton.
For the love god, stop using Edmonton as the paradigm for why top picks aren't the answer.

First, two out of Edmonton's four top picks were garbage by first overall standards. They were either poor draft years, or poor picks or both.

...

In my view, you better have some (likely homegrown) top 5 picks in your line up if you want the Cup.
Is this a joke?? :crazy:

You're contradicting yourself and you should read Micky's post again brah....
Mondi wrote: In my view, a proper Edmonton tank and turn around did not start until 2014.
Dead last 2009-2010.
Dead last 2010-2011.
2nd last 2011-2012.
Seventh last 2010-2011.
3rd last 2013-2014.
3rd last 2014-2015.
Presently 2nd last 2015-2016.

:lol:

Whatevers dude...

Mondi wrote: Take a look at the vast majority of Cups winners, and what do you see?

Chicago - Kane (1st), Toews (3rd)
LA - Doughty (2nd), Gaborik (3rd)
Chicago - As above
LA - As above, less Gaborik
Bruins - An outlier, though they had Seguin (2nd), Horton (3rd)
Chicago - As above

......

In my view, you better have some (likely homegrown) top 5 picks in your line up if you want the Cup
... and we've got... Daniel Sedin (2nd), Henrik Sedin (3rd)... so we're good? :mrgreen:
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Re: First round picks

Post by Strangelove » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:44 pm

micky107 wrote: My point was you have to have people in place to find the not so obvious picks as well...
Yeah, it appears Mondi only read the first sentence of your post.

And it appears he misunderstood that.

Sorry Micky...

*leads Mondi off the stage*
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Re: First round picks

Post by RoyalDude » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:50 pm

Mondi wrote:Fair point, but even one Cup is a tremendous accomplishment (see Canuck 46 year history).
And even one cup is a tremendous accomplishment for an "Outlier" like the Bruins. Pullleeeeeassssse. Seguin was hardly a factor along with Horton. Wheeler was a 5th overall (Virtanen eliminates him)They won the cup with a whole bunch of 2nd, 3rds and 4ths like Beregeron, Krejci, Lucic, Marchand, Chara(3rd round pick came via trade), and journeymen via trades or late, late round picks.

The Canucks have had a 2nd and a 3rd overall pick on their team forever who have never won the cup in the Sedins, we had a 2nd overall pick in Linden forever who never won the cup. It's not the only way my friend. That being sad, it looks like we are getting a top 8 pick maybe even a top 3 in this years draft, throw that with a top 6 in Virtanen and a top 9 in Horvat. By this, you should be elated over our chances to win the cup going by your theory.
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Re: First round picks

Post by 5thhorseman » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:06 pm

It's Lanny McDonald leading the Flames to the Cup that got me :shock:

Oh, and Messier. Where is Messier? You know, the greatest leader of all time!

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Re: First round picks

Post by Hockey Widow » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:21 pm

I think everyone knows you need a number of top 10 picks to build a team. But that alone will never never ever build you a cup contender. You also need to draft well or lucky in later rounds. You need to be cleaver and lucky in your UFA signings, at all levels. You need to make astute trades, you need to develop well. You need good coaching and management. You need luck and health. You need players playing above themselves. You need a lot, a lot more than 1-3 top ten picks.

I will go to my grave saying we win the cup in 2011 if we stay relatively healthy compared to Boston, start with the Malhotra injury, the Samuelsson injury, the Hamhuis injury, the Edler injury, the Burrows injury, the Kesler injury, the Ehrhoff injury. The first three couldn't play in the final. Edler had broken ribs and three broken fingers in his dominant hand. The other three played with one good shoulder. Oh and let's not forget Glass and his broken ribs!

More is needed than top 10 drafting, or top 5 drafting. But ya, it helps immensely to have that too.
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Re: First round picks

Post by micky107 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:30 pm

We are for sure going to have our share of good young talent playing next year and the year after. we're in the right direction, well I think we are, this June will tell more, BUT: we still need vets, not necessarily ancient ones, who are effective players and WILLING to work with the youth. There's more to learn than what we see on the ice, a lot more. I still can't really get a feel whether Willie is the right guy to move forward with. I saw a few things I didn't like this year but I don't know if it's him making all the roster decisions. I gotta dig a bit...
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Re: First round picks

Post by Topper » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:42 pm

Mondi wrote:For the love god, stop using Edmonton as the paradigm for why top picks aren't the answer.

First, two out of Edmonton's four top picks were garbage by first overall standards. They were either poor draft years, or poor picks or both.

Second, Edmonton now has 3-4 real players, and will be trending in the right direction. McDavid and Draisaitl are examples excellent top 3 picks, RNH and Yakupov are not.
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Re: First round picks

Post by SKYO » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:53 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:I think everyone knows you need a number of top 10 picks to build a team. But that alone will never never ever build you a cup contender. You also need to draft well or lucky in later rounds. You need to be cleaver and lucky in your UFA signings, at all levels. You need to make astute trades, you need to develop well. You need good coaching and management. You need luck and health. You need players playing above themselves. You need a lot, a lot more than 1-3 top ten picks.
Preaching to the choir sista.
Hockey Widow wrote:I will go to my grave saying we win the cup in 2011 if we stay relatively healthy compared to Boston, start with the Malhotra injury, the Samuelsson injury, the Hamhuis injury, the Edler injury, the Burrows injury, the Kesler injury, the Ehrhoff injury. The first three couldn't play in the final. Edler had broken ribs and three broken fingers in his dominant hand. The other three played with one good shoulder. Oh and let's not forget Glass and his broken ribs!

More is needed than top 10 drafting, or top 5 drafting. But ya, it helps immensely to have that too.
Why on top of HOF talent, you need a few warriors for the playoffs, who can hurt the other team, make the other team play in pain.

notables...

Blackhawks - Duncan Keith the low-key cheap shot artist who takes out other players. (+seabrook, bickell/carcillo/Ladd/Buff)

Bruins - Boychuck/Lucic/Chara

Kings - Dustin Brown, Clifford (lots of size throughout)

-

So it's good that we got Virtanen, should be a key contributor in more ways than one when push comes to shove in future playoffs, hopefully Tryamkin/Pedan can be those big warriors for us on defense in time.

Why we'll probably get Lucic to help out Virtanen up front, as we are lacking size big time for the forwards.
Grenier (6'5) Sutter (6'3) Gaunce (6'2) the only other tall types.
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Re: First round picks

Post by Meds » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:20 pm

Mondi wrote: For the love god, stop using Edmonton as the paradigm for why top picks aren't the answer.

First, two out of Edmonton's four top picks were garbage by first overall standards. They were either poor draft years, or poor picks or both.

Second, Edmonton now has 3-4 real players, and will be trending in the right direction. McDavid and Draisaitl are examples excellent top 3 picks, RNH and Yakupov are not.
Nugent-Hopkins plays a soft game, but he has better hockey smarts than anyone else on that team other than McDavid and Eberle. 2011 was a weak draft year, but RNH is hardly garbage.
Third, Nurse looks to be a player on D, and Edmonton should be exchanging RNH, Yakupov and perhaps Eberle for further help on D. In my view, a proper Edmonton tank and turn around did not start until 2014. And let's face it, nothing really stinky is really turned around in 1 to 3 seasons (wake up Nucks fans this will take a while).
What kind of help could Edmonton possibly hope to get on D in exchange for "garbage" players like RNH and Yak? Seriously, they are either garbage players who won't get you even a 4th rounder in return, or they are good players with upside and have big trade value. Make up your mind Mondi.

2014? 9 years without a playoff appearance? There are now avid Oiler fans who have never experienced post-season hockey in Edmonton. The tank is at least 6 years old, the rebuild has been going on since 2008 at a minimum.
And further, this idea that first round picks are a "great starting point" or that contenders [don't] need lots of first round picks" is nonsense.

Take a look at the vast majority of Cups winners, and what do you see?

Chicago - Kane (1st), Toews (3rd)
LA - Doughty (2nd), Gaborik (3rd)
Chicago - As above
LA - As above, less Gaborik
Bruins - An outlier, though they had Seguin (2nd), Horton (3rd)
Chicago - As above
Pitt - Crosby (1st), MAF (1st), Malkin (2nd), Staal (2nd)
Det - An outlier
Anaheim - Pronger (2nd), Niedermayer (3rd)
Canes - Staal (2nd), Ladd (4th)

In my view, you better have some (likely homegrown) top 5 picks in your line up if you want the Cup.
Would Chicago be even close to being a contender without Duncan Keith on the blueline? Seabrook is the 1st rounder, but he didn't really become a top pairing stud until he was partnered with Keith. Keith isn't a 1st rounder.

What about contributions from Hossa and Ladd?

Ok, so I'm scrapping everything from before the salary cap came in because you could load up on former 1st round picks via trade and free agency if there were deep enough pockets behind your team.

Boston is an outlier.....LMAO!! Horton was knocked out of the playoffs after Boston was already down 2-0. Seguin was a rookie who only played in 13 games throughout that playoffs. He scored 7 points, those points came in 10 games. The guys contributed nothing for 10 of those 13 games.

I like how Detroit gets to be an outlier. One of the best teams of the last 20 years that managed to continue their successful legacy WITHOUT those picks.

Why is Pittsburgh so unsuccessful with their roster since 2009? They have a pair of 1st overall picks in Crosby and MAF, plus 2nd overall pick Malkin. Why aren't they skating with the big dogs in LA and Chicago?

1st round picks aren't what is important.....good players are.

It's funny how many of those names are NOT homegrown picks btw.

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Re: First round picks

Post by Strangelove » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:34 pm

Mondi wrote: stuff
Da fock Mondster, are you posting from a hookah bar right now

... cuz dude, you're all over the place! :crazy:

"It's been a long tank in Edmonton"... "It hasn't been a long tank in Edmonton".

"New poster Micky was right"... "New poster Micky was wrong".

"Gotta have a coupla top 5 picks"... "Gotta have a coupla top 3 picks".

"RNH and Yak are crap"... "RNH and Yak have high trade value"

:eh:

"People think Vancouver is going to become fucking Edmonton if they have a couple of bad seasons? Give me a break"

- Yeah, no one sad that bro. :?

"The whole idea that we are going to become 2011 Boston or the Detroit Red Wings is non-sense"

- Yeah, no one sad that. :(

Half the teams in the league have top 5 picks on their rosters

... including your Vancouver Canucks.

Or is there an age cut-off?

Well... Virtanen, McCann, and Horvat aren't top 3 picks, should we package 'em all for Drouin? :)

LOL just messing with ya, have patience, trust in Benning, and remember you're just a fan.

Instead of all this silly posting, why don't you organize a "We Want the Cup" rally at Lord Stanley Park. :mex:
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Re: First round picks

Post by Strangelove » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:32 pm

Mondi wrote:
Strangelove wrote: Da fock Mondster, are you posting from a hookah bar right now

... cuz dude, you're all over the place! :crazy:

"It's been a long tank in Edmonton"... "It hasn't been a long tank in Edmonton".
True, Edmonton has sucked for a long time. But, they aren't the norm. There is very little reason to believe Vancouver will become Edmonton if they are bad for 2-3 seasons (i.e. Edmonton is the only example of failure to improve with a run of top picks). However, there is reason to believe Vancouver will acquire a top 5 picks to build around.
Hmmm, you seemed to have settled on: "It's been a long tank in Edmonton"

Well, good for you Jack! :D

Ummm, no one is saying "Vancouver will become Edmonton if they are bad for 2-3 seasons". :?
Mondi wrote:
Strangelove wrote: "New poster Micky was right"... "New poster Micky was wrong".
Anyone who makes the observation that you need to find talent outside of the top 5 five in the draft, is not saying anything we don't already know.
Then why did you cut loose on new poster Micky

... and why do you keep telling us something already know?
Mondi wrote:
Strangelove wrote: "Gotta have a coupla top 5 picks"... "Gotta have a coupla top 3 picks".
Both true
Point was: You suddenly changed your stance from "top 5" to "top 3".
Mondi wrote:
Strangelove wrote: "RNH and Yak are crap"... "RNH and Yak have high trade value"
If you read my post, you will see that I said they are garbage for first overall picks. They are not garbage.
So do they have the value of saaaay a top 3/top 5 pick? :mrgreen:
Mondi wrote:
Strangelove wrote: "People think Vancouver is going to become fucking Edmonton if they have a couple of bad seasons? Give me a break"

- Yeah, no one sad that bro. :?
The fact that Boston won the Cup with that roster is often used as an example as to why you don't need top picks.
You should go home now buddy.

And buddy?

Take a cab.
Mondi wrote:
Strangelove wrote: "The whole idea that we are going to become 2011 Boston or the Detroit Red Wings is non-sense"

- Yeah, no one sad that. :(
The inference many of you are making is that you don't need top end picks to win, and those are two examples. But, the evidence is clear, that teams like those are more rare than teams that win the cup with homegrown top three/five picks.
I said GO HOME!!
Mondi wrote:
Strangelove wrote: Half the teams in the league have top 5 picks on their rosters

... including your Vancouver Canucks.

Or is there an age cut-off?
You can't ask much more from the Sedins than what they have given you...so I'm not sure the point you're trying to make? Don't get top 3 picks?
My point was that your point was silly.
Mondi wrote:
Strangelove wrote: LOL just messing with ya, have patience, trust in Benning, and remember you're just a fan.

Instead of all this silly posting, why don't you organize a "We Want the Cup" rally at Lord Stanley Park. :mex:
Weren't you the guy that was saying this team was playoff bound this year? You're just like ah, a real big fan too, aren't you big guy?
Well at least I thought of the "We Want the Cup" rally at Lord Stanley Park

... what the hell have you ever done? :mex:

And no, I'm not the guy that was saying this team was playoff bound this year.

I'm the guy that keeps saying it's gonna be a rough coupla years and we should focus on 3 years from now.

Now go home, sleep it off, and in the morning get right to work on that rally! :drink:
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Re: First round picks

Post by Hockey Widow » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:34 pm

Mondi

You keep forgetting we have a second and a third overall pick. Two top five picks in the line up. By your logic we don't need anymore than that. It is not a guarantee for a cup. So many other things have to align. Look at all the Cup winners,mthey were more than just their top five picks, much more.

No one is saying we won't be well served by drafting in the top five. I think everyone can agree that a top five, or two, will go a long way to helping this franchise. What is being debated is that that in and of itself is not enough, is no guarantee.
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Re: First round picks

Post by Hockey Widow » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:51 pm

Mondi wrote:Van built around those guys in their prime.

Van had a great run wit them.

They are now past their prime.

Must replace with similar talent.

Good way, through draft.

Better way, top of the draft.

Ok, so now it's prime.
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