2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by damonberryman » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:05 am

RoyalDude wrote:If Benning wants to beat the Subban for Draisaitl and 4th overall we need to offer Horvat and 5th overall. I'm on board with it
No no no no no no nonononononononono :shock: :bang: :bang: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

WTF are you thinking? Are you sober or some stupid shit like that? Have a drink, use your fav drug and rethink your incredibly dumbass position. If we traded Horvat, one day we will watch him raise the Cup WITH ANOTHER FUCKING TEAM.

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by 5thhorseman » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:13 am

There's no reason to let a merely decent player get in the way of obtaining an elusive #1D.

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by damonberryman » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:27 am

5thhorseman wrote:There's no reason to let a merely decent player get in the way of obtaining an elusive #1D.
"Merely decent"? We gave away Schnieds for Horvat. It was one Gillis move that I support all the way. Horvat is going to be a Selke candidate in the future. We have had one of them named Kesler. On top of his talent he will be captain or co-cap on this club. A team needs character to win and develop young players. Those players are as rare as a top D and without them nobody wins anything. Look at all the winners. You got Crosby, Toews, Brown, Bergeron, and others who are the glue a team needs. Talent is more common than character.

We recently drafted a kid loaded with it and he is someone to be excited about. Boeser would be traded by me before Horvat. Both are loaded with the intangibles teams need but I believe Horvat is blessed with being a leader, like the guys I named.

I understand everyone's frustration with our team and wanting to bring in big names is understandable and can help but there has to be a leader or it is just a team maxed out on salary cap that does not quite make it. Even the Sedins, who are full of character, did not have the leadership to get us a Cup that should have been ours. Horvat would have been the extra we lacked in the last five games of that series. I love both of them but they view hockey as important but would not die to win. Horvat will do everything he can to win. The Sedins have perspective. Horvat IS hockey. Even his fucking name says it.

I realize I have gone off here but I truly believe Horvat is UNTOUCHABLE. If they trade him I will have to reevaluate my passion for this team.

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by 5thhorseman » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:14 pm

It's a bit much to say a 21-year old player is UNTOUCHABLE, especially if they are not a projected superstar. I sure hope he ends up leading us to the Cup as you seem to think he will, but it's an incredibly high expectation for a player this young. He may end up rivaling Kesler's peak, yet Kesler didn't lead us to the Cup either. In the end a Norris quality player > Selke quality player.

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by Island Nucklehead » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:20 pm

5thhorseman wrote:It's a bit much to say a 21-year old player is UNTOUCHABLE, especially if they are not a projected superstar. I sure hope he ends up leading us to the Cup as you seem to think he will, but it's an incredibly high expectation for a player this young. He may end up rivaling Kesler's peak, yet Kesler didn't lead us to the Cup either. In the end a Norris quality player > Selke quality player.
I guess it depends what the offer is. If Montreal isn't willing to do Draisaitl+4, it will cost us a lot more than Horvat+5. 5+Horvat+Tanev? Would that be acceptable?

I think we should all just accept that we do not have a palatable offer worthy of Subban, like the Oilers could put together. Our young player/prospect pool is too shallow to make such a move.

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by SKYO » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:28 pm

Yes as much as Subban would be awesome to acquire (finally a #1 dman in Canucks country), it seems it would be too expensive.

I'd actually prefer making some moves from the scrap heap pile, like trading burrows for franson whose on the bottom of sabres depth chart.

Then when a lot of teams strike out in UFA, trade out Sbisa for a pick.

Franson who is atrocious defensively at least gives us some size and offensive capabilities.

I'd then try trading some cheaper players like granlund/etem for Shaw (cap trade), just some small trades that could help.
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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by Cornuck » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:38 pm

SKYO wrote:Yes as much as Subban would be awesome to acquire (finally a #1 dman in Canucks country), it seems it would be too expensive.
It's good to see that you can be reasonable in your obsession. ;)
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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by mr perfect » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:40 pm

5thhorseman wrote:It's a bit much to say a 21-year old player is UNTOUCHABLE, especially if they are not a projected superstar. I sure hope he ends up leading us to the Cup as you seem to think he will, but it's an incredibly high expectation for a player this young. He may end up rivaling Kesler's peak, yet Kesler didn't lead us to the Cup either. In the end a Norris quality player > Selke quality player.
Horvat is already better at 21 than Kesler was at 21. His potential is higher than Kesler's and he's built more solidly which means less chance of injury. Trading him with a first rounder for Subban is akin to the Neely and a first for Barry Pederson. Have people forgotten already?

Kelser didn't lead us to a Cup? Name one player who did it all by himself. Teams win Cups, not individuals. Using your logic, how many Cups has Subban lead Montreal to? Why didn't Subban lead Montreal into the playoffs this year?

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by micky107 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:45 pm

Let's just clarify that Horvat is the most untouchable player on the team and leave it at that... :devil:
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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by mr perfect » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:49 pm

micky107 wrote:Let's just clarify that Horvat is the most untouchable player on the team and leave it at that... :devil:
Not against moving Horvat but the offer would have to blow the socks off. Subban's good but he ain't no sock blower.

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by Hockey Widow » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:57 pm

mr perfect wrote:
micky107 wrote:Let's just clarify that Horvat is the most untouchable player on the team and leave it at that... :devil:
Not against moving Horvat but the offer would have to blow the socks off. Subban's good but he ain't no sock blower.

Of course Subban is a sock blower. That's not the problem.

The problems are 1) we don't have the depth to recover from trading Horvat, especially if it means our 5oa pick is going 2) Subban's 9 million cap will make it harder to replace a Horvat type in FA, at least this year.

If we had the depth up front like Edmonton and in particular had McJesus then Horvat becomes a player you could move in a Subban deal. It's like McCann was a player you could move, as much as it hurt, to acquire Gudbranson because we had Horvat and the 5oa this year.
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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by 5thhorseman » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:58 pm

mr perfect wrote:
5thhorseman wrote:It's a bit much to say a 21-year old player is UNTOUCHABLE, especially if they are not a projected superstar. I sure hope he ends up leading us to the Cup as you seem to think he will, but it's an incredibly high expectation for a player this young. He may end up rivaling Kesler's peak, yet Kesler didn't lead us to the Cup either. In the end a Norris quality player > Selke quality player.
Horvat is already better at 21 than Kesler was at 21. His potential is higher than Kesler's and he's built more solidly which means less chance of injury. Trading him with a first rounder for Subban is akin to the Neely and a first for Barry Pederson. Have people forgotten already?
Holy smokes! Pederson fell off a cliff after he was traded here and PK is entering prime years for a D. No comparison. And Cam Neely? I guess I underestimated how much Horvat's stock has risen around here.
mr perfect wrote: Kelser didn't lead us to a Cup? Name one player who did it all by himself. Teams win Cups, not individuals. Using your logic, how many Cups has Subban lead Montreal to? Why didn't Subban lead Montreal into the playoffs this year?
Yeah I was responding to Mr. Berryman's assertion that Horvat would've done better than the Sedins in leading us to the Cup in 2011.

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by mr perfect » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:42 pm

5thhorseman wrote:
mr perfect wrote:
5thhorseman wrote:It's a bit much to say a 21-year old player is UNTOUCHABLE, especially if they are not a projected superstar. I sure hope he ends up leading us to the Cup as you seem to think he will, but it's an incredibly high expectation for a player this young. He may end up rivaling Kesler's peak, yet Kesler didn't lead us to the Cup either. In the end a Norris quality player > Selke quality player.
Horvat is already better at 21 than Kesler was at 21. His potential is higher than Kesler's and he's built more solidly which means less chance of injury. Trading him with a first rounder for Subban is akin to the Neely and a first for Barry Pederson. Have people forgotten already?
Holy smokes! Pederson fell off a cliff after he was traded here and PK is entering prime years for a D. No comparison. And Cam Neely? I guess I underestimated how much Horvat's stock has risen around here.
mr perfect wrote: Kelser didn't lead us to a Cup? Name one player who did it all by himself. Teams win Cups, not individuals. Using your logic, how many Cups has Subban lead Montreal to? Why didn't Subban lead Montreal into the playoffs this year?
Yeah I was responding to Mr. Berryman's assertion that Horvat would've done better than the Sedins in leading us to the Cup in 2011.
Cam Neely was 21 when the Canucks traded him for 25 year old Barry Pederson. He was considered damaged goods by the media and callers on Dan Russell's show. It was said Neely was brought along too soon by the Canucks and that he would never be more than a third line grinder, as a matter of fact he was expected to be an enforcer behind Craig Coxe and Glen Cochrane. It was only after he got to Boston he broke out into the scorer he was. So don't be a prick about Horvat's potential. Pederson was a consistent 100 point center until he had a tumour removed from his arm. He was still only 25 years old and expected to bounce back from said operation but as you said, he fell off a cliff when no one expected him to. So is a 27 year old Subban the guy to lead the Canucks to glory? No, he's not that good as we've seen this season and his $9 mil contract means no room to fill that massive hole left at center by trading Horvat and the 5ht overall.

I'm going to say this to you, Damonberryman and everyone else here who complains that the Sedins or Kesler didn't lead us to a Cup. Not one player can magically lead a team to the promised land. Don't believe that Messier leadership hype bullshit for a minute. Talent, balance and depth is what wins championships. The one year the Canucks had all that was 2010-2011 but they were done in by injury, poor goaltending and poor coaching. Why Vigneault never changed the first power play unit when Kesler had an abdominal tear and couldn't maintain a net presence with the Bruins defence moving him out for Thomas to see the shots and Elder and Erhoff not being able to shoot the puck because of a broken hand and a shoulder separation I'll never know. Why he left Luongo in until the game was out of reach in game 6 when Luongo gave up back to back bad goals to Marchand and Lucic is a mystery. But in the end that's what killed the Canucks in the Stanley Cup final. Not a lack of leadership from the players.

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by Ronning's Ghost » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:56 pm

mr perfect wrote:I'm going to say this to you, Damonberryman and everyone else here who complains that the Sedins or Kesler didn't lead us to a Cup. Not one player can magically lead a team to the promised land.
I agree with you, but since the spectre of 2011 -- and its associated "if onlys" -- has been raised in the draft thread, I will point out that, in addition to the "if onlys" you cited, the Canucks win the Cup in 2011 if they draft Kopitar in 2005.

The outcome of many playoff series to come will likely be decided in the next two days.
Last edited by Ronning's Ghost on Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2016 NHL ENTRY DRAFT

Post by 5thhorseman » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:41 pm

mr perfect wrote:...
Not being a prick about Horvat's potential. Just said that he was a "decent" player which you can take to mean top-6, which is what most on this forum project. Sure, he may turn out to be the next Cam Neely, but it's not probable.

My point was that he's not untouchable. The only untouchables are franchise players. And to your other point, I've never criticised the Sedins or Kesler or the 2011 team in general for not taking us all the way, except for that speedbagging episode, which was embarrasing, to say the least.

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