Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Reefer2 » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:35 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Tiger wrote:Not worried about Sutter or Raus .. both are good additions to the Canucks whose main problems have been the high goals against ( 19th in the league ).. not goals for ( 8th in the league ).. Both are good backchecking and forechecking .. Maybe Sutter only gets 15 goals but prevents 15 more than Bonino.. and wins more defensive zone faceoffs.. Raus is a a scrappy all round 3rd or 4th line defence first player.. I expect this year we will have less goals for ( twins older ) but a lot less goals against ..
Who the hell is Raus ?
Same here, who is Raus?

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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by UWSaint » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:22 am

Lloyd Braun wrote:I think we sometimes fall into the trap of looking at a contract through the eyes of "if we signed everyone to this same value, would we be able to compete with the top teams??"

The reality is that great teams become great because they have a good portion of their players signed far under their value, and then surround them by complimentary pieces that they can afford to pay a little bit over value because of the other excellent contracts....

Contracts like Sutter's don't look great when we figure "what if our team were made of all Sutters, all paid like Sutter?" They do look very reasonable if we can see a future where our depth in forward prospects becomes a bunch of underpaid NHL forwards within two or three years, which the reliable and mature Sutter would become a wonderful compliment to....
This is a great observation and one that reinforces the point that, in a salary cap world, you cannot build a deep team unless you (1) draft well and therefore have players who contribute on ELC's or in RFA years; (2) sign or trade for players and sign them to longer deals before they have a "pay me" season.

I guess their are two other ways: You can mask a lack of depth if you have tope end D who can give you 25 quality mins a night and thus make it possible to play a couple scrubs in the 5/6 spot against favorable match ups (the Chicago/LA model) or you can get "better-than-market" signings by giving something away (NTC's).

The Canucks competed at a high level for a handful of years by having a couple pre "pay me" signings (i.e., Burrows signed as a 3rd liner and played for a couple years as a first liner), an RFA playing a huge role (Edler), and a few star players who took pay cuts to get a NTC (Sedins) and some "good-not-great" players who did the same. But the Canucks haven't signed an "pre pay me" contract in years, fell into overvaluing vets (Burrows again), and had NTC albatrosses that kept them from freely moving players for maximum value. By the time the players were content with being moved along (or demanded it), it was because the team was no longer a legitimate contender and they were no longer a legitimate contender because the players with the NTC's no longer were a good value (and thus the depth started getting even weaker).
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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by RoyalDude » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:27 am

I'm a fan of Raus
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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by ESQ » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:37 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote: Or people could stop comparing Ignitowski's player signings to the lowest common denominator . Who would you rather have Sean Couturier or Brandon Sutter ? Just because Murray is pissing away money doesn't excuse Benning's bad contracts .
I don't think anyone is saying Hagelin is the "lowest common denominator", in fact I haven't seen anyone post a single criticism of the Hagelin signing (here's an opinion piece by Ducks writers that says he's a second liner and getting paid like one.

I only referenced Hagelin as a demonstration of what the market value is for similar players. A lot of people on here seem to think they know what the market value of a player is, and can therefore state very definitively that Benning is over-paying.

A mid-30ish point forward coming out of RFA is going to cost $4million + to keep.

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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Tiger » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:04 pm

Reefer2 wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote:
Tiger wrote:Not worried about Sutter or Raus .. both are good additions to the Canucks whose main problems have been the high goals against ( 19th in the league ).. not goals for ( 8th in the league ).. Both are good backchecking and forechecking .. Maybe Sutter only gets 15 goals but prevents 15 more than Bonino.. and wins more defensive zone faceoffs.. Raus is a a scrappy all round 3rd or 4th line defence first player.. I expect this year we will have less goals for ( twins older ) but a lot less goals against ..
Who the hell is Raus ?
Same here, who is Raus?
My bad .. Raus = Prust :)
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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by nuckster » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:57 pm

Yeah i know, this topic has been pretty much beaten to death here, but it' s kind of amusing to see how some outside interests view Benning's moves.

https://www.todaysslapshot.com/nhl-west ... retooling/

Unlike the the writer of the article, I kinda think that Benning will be assured of a few years in his role regardless. If we dive, it could be spun or implied that this was the re-build game plan (as long as he acquires some draft picks for some of the older vets at TTD), and if we do mediocre, that gets termed a s a retool that just missed. The other piece working on Benning's behalf is that he appears to have Linden's full backing.

I get the impression that there's a pretty even split on what CCers prefer. I'm one of those that isn't sold that Benning has the savvy we think or hope he does. Seems to be great at assessing talent, not so great at getting full value for trades - like some have mentioned, maybe he'll improve over time?

I would like to be a Benning convert, but will have to see how it unfolds. (Like it really matters in the Canuck universe what this armchair GM thinks anyways?) Convert me Jimmy!
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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Strangelove » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:00 pm

nuckster wrote:Yeah i know, this topic has been pretty much beaten to death here, but it' s kind of amusing to see how some outside interests view Benning's moves.
The author of that piece is a Canuck fan who asks the question:

"How did Benning find himself on the hotseat so quickly?" (after a nice turnaround season last year)

Just saying: NOT an outsider's opinion.

Besides, most outside pundits just reflect back what they're hearing from Canuck fans in general.

So yeah, there is no "outside". :drink:

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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by nuckster » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:18 pm

Never a shortage for the smartass replies, eh strangelove? U can offer some great insight at times, but your pompous nature really gets tiring... predictable.
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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Hockey Widow » Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:09 pm

nuckster, I think you hit the nail on the head. Benning's moves, either in isolation or cumulative, are polarizing. There seems to be two entrenched positions and perhaps we all need to take a step back, wait and see approach. Both sides of the issue make good, solid points. Some well thought out, others reactionary.

Most of the negativity I read and hear seems to be reactionary and a lot of lemming behaviour. It's like a lot of pundits lost the ability to think for themselves. When you hear pundits talking about the aging Sundin twins, rookies having a good shot because they are coming off a Calder Cup win, and other such glaring mistakes, you just have to give your head a shake. Talking about TSN the other day.

It was fashionable last year to talk about our closed window and how we would surely miss the playoffs. Twins have a great year, Burrows bounces back, Miller has a good year until his injury, Vrbata has a career year, Horvat shines and wham, we get 101 points. Now it is fashionable to talk again about how we will surely miss the playoffs.

In the article you quoted he talks about a great trade in the Kesler deal and a great ability to pluck Bonino from the Ducks. Not many people I know view the Kesler deal as a good deal never mind great. He had a loaded gun to his head and did the best he could. I wonder if that author who thinks it was a great trade has been shitting on Sbisa? And Bonino is not a better player than Sutter. Bonino is a good complimentary piece on an otherwise strong team but here......I won't miss him.

A lot of things have to go right for a lot of teams who hope to make the playoffs, not just us.
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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Tciso » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:38 am

ESQ wrote:
Blob Mckenzie wrote: Or people could stop comparing Ignitowski's player signings to the lowest common denominator . Who would you rather have Sean Couturier or Brandon Sutter ? Just because Murray is pissing away money doesn't excuse Benning's bad contracts .
I don't think anyone is saying Hagelin is the "lowest common denominator", in fact I haven't seen anyone post a single criticism of the Hagelin signing (here's an opinion piece by Ducks writers that says he's a second liner and getting paid like one.

I only referenced Hagelin as a demonstration of what the market value is for similar players. A lot of people on here seem to think they know what the market value of a player is, and can therefore state very definitively that Benning is over-paying.

A mid-30ish point forward coming out of RFA is going to cost $4million + to keep.
except squishy Santorelli. He got $850,000. But, yeah. A good one is $4mil
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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Strangelove » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:40 pm

nuckster wrote:Never a shortage for the smartass replies, eh strangelove? U can offer some great insight at times, but your pompous nature really gets tiring... predictable.
Yikes, I had forgotten how fragile you "sters" are! :crazy:

Yeahno, my response was neither "smartass" nor "pompous".

It's my job to set the record straight: twas NOT an outsider's opinion... as you stated.

The writer is a Canuck fan reflecting typical Canuck fan sentiments.

Take a pill and carry on Whateverster....
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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Overtime » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:25 am

Mondi wrote:It must be August around here!

Sutter v Bonino = who cares.

This team had Ryan Kesler (at 41 goals) as their second line center and didn't win the cup. Until we are approaching that level of talent again, the difference between a B- and B second line centre isn't going to matter.
Sorry to bring up the past but sending Hodgson away at that point in time; killed us. It Killed Cody as well. We were poised to win. :(

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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Sat May 07, 2016 9:26 am

RoyalDude wrote:
SKYO wrote:IN gonna love Benning in one years time just watch.
*evil laugh*
Him and Beer Bong Mckenzie will be quite embarrassed of the way they have conducted themselves on these boards of late. Eating crow big time
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Re: Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Todd Bersnoozi » Sat May 07, 2016 9:37 am

Overtime wrote:Sorry to bring up the past but sending Hodgson away at that point in time; killed us. It Killed Cody as well. We were poised to win. :(
CoHo wanted out though; he didn't see much a future playing behind Hank and Kes. Too bad, I'd agree he was starting to look good with us.

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Blob Mckenzie » Wed May 25, 2016 7:17 am

RoyalDude wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:On Bonino, Benning said he loved playing in Vancouver, was shocked by the trade. They liked his hands, his PK game, his hockey smarts. Said they had high hopes that he could centre the second power play unit but he never quit got there (this to me is key) I think they saw he wasn't what they wanted on the 2nd PP unit and decided he didn't fit long term. I like this approach of Benning's. If you don't see a future for a player don't be afraid to move him out.
Suddenly it makes sense. See #4 (ignore #5). Although #7 might be the sleeper stat we've all overlooked.

Image
The only stat Benning cares about - Bonino phones it in the playoffs and Sutter elevates his game. The no show by Bonino in the Flames series is enough for me to love the deal. Everyone seems to rave about Sutters game in the Mean Something season. That's all I care about
Lol spoke too soon. Bonino has blown Sutter away in the playoffs. He's probably more physical too.
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