Canucks land Brandon Sutter and 3rd round pick

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by BladesofSteel » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:03 am

Thumbs up from me.

Bonino had an up and down season, but he disappeared in the playoffs and clearly Benning didn't see him as a long term solution. While he is a decent two-way player, his hands and shot are terrific, he could never find any level of consistency. Defensively, he couldn't compete against bigger centres, and his face-off ability was sub-standard.

Sutter brings a more defensive minded game with the ability to match up against the bigger, more offensive players in the West, specifically the Pacific. Whether he's a long term fit here or not remains, but he's a better asset to have in what should be a very transitional sophomore season for Benning's re-build.

Willie should be familiar with Sutter from his WHL days, and he brings character and work ethic to a club in need of more size and experience down the middle.

Moving Clendenning makes the deal happen from a financial standpoint, while also opening up a roster spot for further moves.

The picks are a wash. If Jim opts to deal Sutter at the DL, he alone would bring back a 1st. Can't say the same for Bonino.

Vancouver got the best player of the trade, and opens the door for further moves. From a competitive standpoint, adding Prust and now Sutter makes this club a heck of a lot tougher to play against, while adding more leadership, character and grit, three things sorely lacking in the Calgary series.

Goals may still be hard to come by, but work ethic, consistency and competitiveness should allow this club to earn the underdog role.

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by herb » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:08 am

Good trade. The Forsling/Clendening trade, OTOH....

Bonino is a tweener. Sutter is more of a role player. Bonino had a great two months to start the year, but then his offense completely dried up. Long term Sutter makes more sense than Bonino. Hopefully Benning doesn't go and sign Sutterto a 6 yr, $30M deal or anything like that (still a very real possibility...).

I could see Bonino putting up some good PP numbers playing in Pittsburgh.

Probably the only thing I don't like about this trade is that Sutter is way overrated due to his last name.

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Jovocop » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:10 am

herb wrote: Hopefully Benning doesn't go and sign Sutterto a 6 yr, $30M deal or anything like that (still a very real possibility...).
quote]

Oh well, keep your fingers crossed...
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Benning sees Sutter as the leader of the younger group, which includes Bo Horvat.

Also, #Canucks working on contract with Sutter right now.

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Southern_Canuck » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:12 am

I found both Bonino and Clendening to be below NHL average skaters - so at least this reduces the plodding nature of the Canucks.

What do you make of the center situation on the roster then?

Henrik (34) $7M per, UFA in 2018
Horvat (20) $845k, RFA in 2017
Sutter (26) $3.3M, UFA in 2016
Vey (24) $1M, RFA in 2016

Blair Jones (28) $575k, UFA in 2016
Alex Friesen (24) $575k, RFA in 2016
Joseph Labate (22) $680k, RFA in 2017
Brendan Gaunce (21) $863, RFA in 2017 (has been playing as a LW in Utica)
Cole Cassels (20) $589, RFA in 2018
Jared McCann (19) $895k, 3 year ELC (contract will slide if he goes back to OHL this season)

Given what I've seen from Vey, I'd say they still need an NHL center...

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Jovocop » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:29 am

Southern_Canuck wrote:I found both Bonino and Clendening to be below NHL average skaters - so at least this reduces the plodding nature of the Canucks.

What do you make of the center situation on the roster then?

Henrik (34) $7M per, UFA in 2018
Horvat (20) $845k, RFA in 2017
Sutter (26) $3.3M, UFA in 2016
Vey (24) $1M, RFA in 2016

Blair Jones (28) $575k, UFA in 2016
Alex Friesen (24) $575k, RFA in 2016
Joseph Labate (22) $680k, RFA in 2017
Brendan Gaunce (21) $863, RFA in 2017 (has been playing as a LW in Utica)
Cole Cassels (20) $589, RFA in 2018
Jared McCann (19) $895k, 3 year ELC (contract will slide if he goes back to OHL this season)

Given what I've seen from Vey, I'd say they still need an NHL center...

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The Bonino for Sutter trade hinted that he would not hesitate to trade players that we recently acquired. If Cassels or Jones show that they could handle the fourth line center job, Vey will be gone very soon.

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Island Nucklehead » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:55 am

I don't see Sutter as having any kind of grit or being hard to play against. He's taller and lighter than Bonino.

They are pretty similar players, but for a team with a hole at 2C and a younger guy most expected to be 3C this year, I don't really get it. Sutter is not a top-6 guy. I guess the Canucks are going to move Horvat right into the 2C role, count on him for 40 points, and let Sutter and Vey handle the bottom half of the roster? Maybe Vey will pencil in as the 2C? Not sure that's the best way to develop Bo, who most feel will top-out in that 2C spot.

But hey it sounds like that 2016 3rd could be our own from the Pedan deal, which should make it a really, really good 3rd round pick :lol:

Anyways, not the worst trade Jimbo has made. I feel Bonino's contract alone makes him a more attractive piece than Sutter, so not sure why we had to add salary, move down in the draft, and move a prospect. Then again, it's not nearly as bad as adding a pick to Kassian to land Prust, so I guess Jim deserves props for convincing Rutherford to include some KY prior to the ass-ramming.

Waiting on the 5x$4.5M deal to be announced in the coming days, and people will do backflips because the NTC is only modified.

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Re: Canucks land Brendan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Meds » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:57 am

UWSaint wrote:This is a very good deal, I think.

Let's take a couple of things off the table. The difference between what will be a 50-60 pick and a 61-70 pick is more or less a wash. Of course the earlier pick is more valuable, but only marginally. Perhaps its "best" value is to grab a deadline guy that should command a third but the competitive team has the option of dangling a second. That's important for Pittsburgh; probably not Vancouver so much.

Clendening. I thought he did a decent job in his limited action with the Canucks. But he got worse, not better, as he was exposed to more ice time. His brain farts were numerous. His overall defense does not look yet to be an NHL regular, though his movement suggests he could be. His offense didn't show last year but could elevate him to a bottom pairing guy. Not a bad guy to have in an organization. But the NHL (and AHL) are full of tweeners. And the Canucks have theirs: Corrado (still young enough to develop and, if I am not mistaken, needs to be carried on the roster or waived), Bartkowski, Fedun (arguably not quite a tweener), Weber (who is only an NHLer for the power play), you get the picture. Sbisa might be in that category, too, but is remarkably in the top 4....

Point is, the Clendenings of the world (certainly what he can contribute now) are always available on the waiver wire and don't have much of a value other than so that the guy you go into the season with on the bench or the first call up went through training camp with your team and not someone elses..... That's what Pittsburgh gets; what Vancouver gets is Frank Corrado.

So the draft pick swap and Clendenning tip the scales to Pittsburgh marginally. But then compare the principles: Bonino and Suter. Both are solid NHL players with significant holes in their games. Both are streaky offensively. Bonino was responsible defensively, but not good. At the end of the day Sutter is a better skater and a far more effective player in the defensive zone. He will be good on the PK. He is average at the dot -- thus better than Bonino. But he is *not* a crasher; he does not intimidate or antagonize. In that way he is not Kesler before he could score. Bonino's superior quality is that he is a better playmaker than Sutter (Sutter's almost as bad distributing the puck as Matthias) -- and that's the quality that has teams thinking Bonino is a second line center and Sutter really will not be more than a third line center.

But at the end of the day, a "top half" 3C is more valuable than a "bottom half" 2C. Or at least I think so. Because not only does having a legitimate defensive 3C keep some goals out of your net, it decreases the likelihood you will have to match top lines because your third line is getting kicked around.

The real x factor in this trade, though, is Bo Horvat. If Horvat can be a second line center at least of Bonino's quality (and I think he can based on what we saw in the last half of last year -- if not next year, in two -- remember, he is young), then this deal makes complete sense. Because Horvat 2C and Sutter 3C is far better than Bonino 2C/Horvat 3C (or Horvat 2C/Bonino 3C) IF (but only if) Horvat can be at least a close to 20 goal 45 point guy.

That's the thing about trades and why teams make them and why sometimes both teams are better off. Because of the effect on the entire lineup.

For what its worth, I see nothing wrong with a move that entrusts Horvat to continue his significant growth. Because if he doesn't grow, the Canucks are screwed for a long, long time. You can't hedge in today's NHL when you don't have depth.
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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Meds » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:20 am

I like this trade, for the most part. If nothing else it gives us something to talk about.....no? :lol:

The one thing that I think Benning seems to miss on in his trades is packaging up players like Bonino, who have a low cap hit and can be enough to sweeten a deal that gives the Canucks a much better return. But maybe that just wasn't out there right now.....

Sutter put up 21 goals playing with 3rd line scrubs while Crosby and Malkin skated with the talented wingers. To me that says he can put up 20 goals in Vancouver with equally mediocre linemates in our bottom-6. This was something that Bonino just couldn't do. Sutter may not be a crasher, but he will actually throw a hit and finish his check (as was already noted), Bones never did this. Sutter was also the Penguins best face-off man among skaters with more than 100 draws. Edit: I missed Marcel Goc who they acquired from the Blues mid-season.

Bonino may be the better play-maker, but who cares, he wasn't good enough to make plays with the talent level he skated with. Even once he had Vrbata on his right side towards the end of the year his production only improved fractionally. Between Higgins and Bonino, our 2nd line had a 66% chance of never throwing a hit or finishing a check on any given shift. Bonino was terrible in the faceoff circle, I'll take Sutter there thanks.

I'm not sure what to think about this move as far as Clendening is concerned. I'll take S_C's word on it though as he seems to have watched him more than us at the AHL level. If Clendening wasn't going to be NHL ready, then whatever, let the Penguins plug him into their top-6 and be the worse for it.

The pick swap is a wash now that we know which picks were exchanged.

Overall I think the Canucks get better and Pittsburgh actually gets worse. The Penguins achilles heel for the last several seasons has been a serious lack of sandpaper and defensive prowess. They just gave up one of their best defensive forwards and are replacing him with a guy who is softer and poorer in the faceoff dot. The only way this trade pans out as a win for the Penguins is if they put Bonino on the 2nd line and move either him or Malkin to LW.....which is not outside of the realm of possibility I suppose.

I fully suspect that Benning's long game is incorporating a shorter term view that is looking at the trade deadline this season and he see's that the Canucks, for the first time in years, will be in a place to be sellers and have 2 commodities that should be willing to waive without too much convincing. If he is making a few moves that seem to be cavalier with our 2nd rounders, it will all be forgotten if the Canucks go into the 2016 draft with 3 or 4 picks in the top 30. I think this is a real possibility as the recent marketplace indicates that both Hamhuis and Vrbata should return at least a 1st round pick from a top-10 team. This would give us 3 picks, and who knows what other moves he might make to squeeze another one out of somebody.....I know it's unlikely, but it's not impossible.

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Southern_Canuck » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:41 am

Meds wrote:I'm not sure what to think about this move as far as Clendening is concerned. I'll take S_C's word on it though as he seems to have watched him more than us at the AHL level. If Clendening wasn't going to be NHL ready, then whatever, let the Penguins plug him into their top-6 and be the worse for it.
To be clear, Clendening was an All-Star AHL defenceman 2012-13 and 2013-14 based on the strength of his passing and playmaking skills - however he is a below average skater and has not improved in that area. He had a down year in 2014-15, and looked exposed even against AHL forwards. He may be able to become a 5-6 NHL defenceman who specializes on the powerplay, but he is not good against any NHL speed. I'm not sorry to see him go - I'd like to see better skaters on defence.
Meds wrote:Overall I think the Canucks get better and Pittsburgh actually gets worse. The Penguins achilles heel for the last several seasons has been a serious lack of sandpaper and defensive prowess. They just gave up one of their best defensive forwards and are replacing him with a guy who is softer and poorer in the faceoff dot. The only way this trade pans out as a win for the Penguins is if they put Bonino on the 2nd line and move either him or Malkin to LW.....which is not outside of the realm of possibility I suppose.
Don't forget that this move allowed Pittsburgh to sign excellent faceoff/defensive center Eric Fehr at $2M - so their 3-4 centers Bonino and Fehr will cost $3.9M when Sutter alone cost them $3.3M - I think they got better there.

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by dbr » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:59 am

I like the trade. I think Sutter is the better player and fit and the extras in this case are not too significant.

Having a right handed centre who can shelter a couple of younger players (without necessarily blocking the way to a scoring role) is a valuable thing for this club.

Kudos are also due to Benning for proving he's willing to move on from his own acquisitions.

All the same, I do feel like this deal could easily be jumping off point to criticize Benning (don't like what he paid to acquire Clendening and particularly Bonino, and if his eye for talent is so valuable how is it that he went out and acquired players who are obviously not working out after a season or less? Is Benning a compulsive bargain bin shopper?) but I guess we've been there enough times.

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Hockey Widow » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:00 pm

So Sven's agent was right. He had to wait until we completed a trade, now we know. :mrgreen:

First, we all knew we needed to clear a roster spot if we wanted to fit some kids in. Trading two for one we now have an extra spot open.

Second, we all knew we were going to be weak at centre. This trade, as others have said, allows us to audition for the 2c spot. Is Bo ready, Mcann? Or do we plug Vey in there? Can Sutter take that role while the kids develop? Ferh was picked up by the Pens for 2 million for 2 years just after this deal but he is out for 6-8 months. For them that's playoff push territory but we needed an upgrade now. Cassels may not be ready for camp and probably needs some time in Utica. But this move, on paper buys us some developmental time for our centres.

Benning has said he didn't want to carry 8 D if the 7-8 guys were both rookies. Now he can carry 7 with comparables available for call up if needed. This means that he can carry 14 forwards effectively making room for Virtanen plus 1.

Sutter is a better F/O guy than Bonino but I liked Bonino's game in the World's this past spring. I was not a huge Bonino fan but liked his contract. Sutter at 3.3 is scary, even more Benning has said he expects a new deal to get done in the next couple of days. So Sutter is not going to be an expiring contract traded at the TDD. In a sense he is the Richardson and Matthias replacement.

The Anaheim 2nd for our own third back is still perplexing. Although not as bad as it could be I still want Benning to hang onto those seconds. But Benning has just shown he is not adverse to trading players he acquired which to me is a good thing. Hope Vey is next :mrgreen:

Another boy WD knows well and likes.

Sven should get done now and that will leave us under 1 million in cap space unless we move someone else out. That leaves us enough cap room for call ups but little else.

Currently I think we are still very weak at centre with future potential in the system. Why not bring back Richardson at 2.whatever for two years? Simple answer seems to be that Benning wants to re-sign Sutter for 3-4 years as he sees him as his type of player. He got to see Sutter play a lot back east so presumably he knows what he is getting. As others have said this is Benning targeting a specific player then going to get him. It's also a case of Benning knowing who he does not see as fitting the future core and being willing to trade them as he can.

I'm glad Bonino is gone tbh. Clendenning seems to have been a waste of a prospect but not one that I think translates into the NHL any time soon if at all. The swap of picks is confusing, again. We still have Carolina's 3rd as well so maybe not so bad. We still have our 2nd and two thirds.

Not really sure what to make of this overall. One of those deals we will have to see how it pans out for both teams. Certainly Sutter will be better suited for the west, more so that either Bonino or Clendenning. Vey is still a weak link but I think I can see him getting a shot at 2nd line now, with Sven and Burrows/Vrbata/Virtanen.

Expect to see both Sven and Sutter with new contracts this week.
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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Southern_Canuck » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:22 pm

Inter-related trades:

June 27, 2014
To Vancouver: Nick Bonino, Luca Sbisa, 2014 first round pick (#24-Jared McCann), 2014 third round pick (later traded to NYR who selected #85-Keegan Iverson)
To Anaheim: Ryan Kesler, 2015 third round pick (#84-Deven Sideroff)

June 27, 2014
To Vancouver: Derek Dorsett
To NYR: 2014 third round pick (#85-Keegan Iverson)

November 25, 2014
To Vancouver: Andrey Pedan
To NYI: Alexandre Mallet and 2016 third round pick

January 29, 2015
To Vancouver: Adam Clendening
To Chicago: Gustav Forsling

June 30, 2015
To Vancouver: 2016 second round pick
To Anaheim: Kevin Bieksa

July 28, 2015
To Vancouver: Brandon Sutter and 2016 third round pick (Vancouver's pick that was traded to NYI for Andrey Pedan)
To Pittsburgh: Nick Bonino, Adam Clendening, and 2016 second round pick (Anaheim's pick)

Whew. Bonino, Clendening, the Anaheim 2016 second round pick, and the NYR 2014 and Vancouver 2016 third round picks cancel each other out --- what is the net?

In: Luca Sbisa, Jared McCann, Derek Dorsett, Andrey Pedan, and Brandon Sutter
Out: Ryan Kesler, 2015 third round pick Deven Sideroff, Alexandre Mallet, Gustav Forsling, and Kevin Bieksa

I have to admit that other than still believing Kesler was worth more, that doesn't look too bad...!

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Aaronp18 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:26 pm

Southern_Canuck wrote: I have to admit that other than still believing Kesler was worth more, that doesn't look too bad...!

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Yeah, big picture makes things look reasonable and rational.

Kesler should have been worth more, if we could've traded with more than 1 or 2 teams. This easily shows the value of a NMC/NTC and is why teams should be looking for discounts when signing players to them!

Also demonstrates how a team should limit how many they hand out.

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Re: Canucks land Brandan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by Hockey Widow » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:33 pm

The third we get is conditional. We get the better of the two picks the Pens own, our own original or the 3rd they got from the NYI. So it is somewhat protected in the event we win the cup :mrgreen:

Benning on Sutter:

* Been working on the deal for a month, began talks at the draft. A lot of back and forth and different options explored. (yes, a targeted player)

* Believes the Canucks get stronger at centre and land a centre better suited for the west

* Believes Sutter will be the leader of the young core

* Calls Sutter a key foundation piece and expects a contract extension to get done shortly, 2-3 days, maybe a week.

* Move allows others on the depth chart to move up.

* Expects Sutter to be strong on the PK (Bonino wasn't bad there)

* Thinks our team F/O percentage just got better

* The usual character and leadership stuff


Overall this trade shows how much Benning had his feet to the fire in the Kesler deal. If Kesler had agreed to waive for Pittsburg then Sutter was the guy coming back so Benning gets his man in the end.

Benning said he was angry with our playoff showing. He is aggressively moving out players he feels failed to compete and replacing them with guys he feels will and can compete in the west. The Ferland principle at play :mrgreen:
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Re: Canucks land Brendan Sutter and 3rd round pick

Post by SKYO » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:35 pm

Zedlee wrote:Henrick, Sutter and Bo are our top 3 centres...pretty solid IMO.

Can't help but wonder though, what is the "plan"? This is not a trade for the future, but a trade that helps us make the playoffs next year. Hard to see how Sutter fits long term...his next contract will likely be more than his current rate so is he trade deadline fodder? I guess JB doesn't think any of the young centres will be ready anytime soon.

Obviously JB did not see Bonino as a LT solution and Clendenning was redundant with Corrado pushing to make the team.

Time will tell....
Agreed, plus I like the fact that the 26 year old Sutter is right handed, in addition to being a great shutdown, gritty, two-way center ala the supremo 3rd line center.

To me this means Horvat should/could be bumped up to 2nd line duties next season. :thumbs:
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