WD and developing prospects

[2Fingers]

This is about couch WD and how he fits into the Nucks for the next few years.

First this is not a slam or anything negative about what he is doing but an observation about how who he plays and when and how he will develop the prospects already in the Nucks organization.

I think we can all agree that the Canucks are in a transition mode at the moment, we have many of our key players nearing the 2nd half of their careers. Note I didn’t say they are over the hill or playing bad hockey just they are not 21 or 24 anymore. I also said many and not all, and I am saying top 6 players or top 4 defenders.

What this post is about is how WD is willing develop young players or should I say not willing to develop young guys. Of course it seems if you played for him in his previous life then you get in ahead of others. What I am worried about is how WD did not want Horvat on the team and he publically stated, or it seems he did, that he didn’t want Horvat to start the season with the big club. Yet on the other hand he brings in his players from the past and they are getting icetime ahead of prospects from the farm.

Yes I know it is all about winning games and making the playoffs but the Canucks are in transition and their chance of going to the finals and winning it all are slim compared to the team we saw a few years ago. Now is the time for the Nucks to bring in a couple more draft picks/prospects instead of waiver pickups or reclamation projects.

If WD is that reluctant to give a 20 year old icetime then why do we bother having a 1st round draft pick?

Again not saying they (the prospect) just are given icetime but Horvat is a perfect example of a top drafted player being given a chance to play and show what he can do. Now his career is off to a great start.

I would like to see another Canucks drafted player (or 2), or someone like Sven on the team next year instead of players like McMillian or even Vey. Maybe give Vey another year not sure on him yet but I don’t think he will be a top 6 player and bottom 6 players are a little easier to obtain than top 6.

I am thinking about the Nucks in 3 – 4 years and getting ready for the next generation. We went through the WCE and then Sedin’s so we have had it very good for 10 – 15 years. Who are the next set of players to have this team in the top 10 of the league again and is WD and to some point the ownership more interested in just making the playoffs to see what happens? Are they just concerned about winning now and not the future? That is of course the coaches main concern is to win games or they are fired so we can understand what WD does and why.

I know this is an odd time to write this as the Nuck even up the series and are in the playoffs but I don’t have high expectations for this team to go far against the top teams in the league so again I am looking out 3 – 4 years when the Sedin’s retire, who will take their place?

Will WD give Virtanen, Cassels, Shinkaruk et al, icetime in the next couple of years to become top 6 players?

[dangler]

I would guess that there were more rookie man/games this past regular season than in the last 10 years of Canuck history.

You don't think Willie will give the rookies a fair chance at making the team in this falls training camp/preseason?

[Island Nucklehead]

I don't think Willie will have much choice with the way our salary cap is heading into next season. Assuming we don't trade any vets (Hansen/Higgins/Bieksa) we'll only have about $5-$6M in cap space to fill probably 4-5 spots. That doesn't really lend itself to re-signing guys like Matthias or Richardson. Baertschi, Kenins, Vey, Corrado, Weber, Stanton, Marktsom... all need new RFA deals. So it's unlikely the Canucks will bring anyone in from the outside. I would say a guy like Virtanen has a good chance of making the team next year, he's just got to outplay the likes of Vey.

I think Willie (and the organizations) primary goal is to win games and get into the playoffs. As a veteran team, he likely wants guys that work hard and can play responsible hockey. Typically, young rookies (re: teenagers) aren't the most responsible players, so I can understand his concern. Hopefully Horvat provides a good template for future youngsters hoping to make the Canucks.

[Boston Canucker]

Actually, the whole story about how Willie was questioning whether Bo should be on the team, to me, speaks very well about him as a coach/leader in at least two respects. First, he publicly admitted it. Think of all the arrogant coaches/gms who never admit any faults/doubts. The admitting of it means he is self-aware about his presumption, and with the way Bo developed this year I would bet with the next young guy who looks to make the jump WD has the experience with Horvat in mind. Second, once Horvat was on the team, even with WD's doubts, he did not punish the kid by burying him, limiting minutes, because Benning wanted him in, he played him; he gave him minutes, and big minutes against the likes of Kopitar, Getzlaf, and Bo showed what he could do.

I'm as confident in WD with our young guys as I am, if not more so, of any coach we've had in years. He's coached in junior, the AHL, so he knows how to relate and develop young players. However this series with CGY turns out, even if we lose, this year has made me much more comfortable with this upper mgmt/coaching team. Not that there haven't been questionable moves (Sbisa's contract, yikes), but I have more faith in a long term plan and a coach who can carry it out.

[ESQ]

Linden Vey is an interesting case, because he probably did take a Canucks' prospect's roster spot (maybe Jensen? I can't really remember who was on the bubble out of training camp). He got top-unit PP time, and produced at an excellent clip throughout October. I can't remember the last rookie that was given that kind of opportunity - and lets not forget, Linden Vey is still a rookie.

To start the season, Vey was given a good opportunity. Then Horvat made the team - the first teenager to make the team since Nedved in 1990. Horvat was ultimately given major opportunity on the defensive side of the game - late-in-game faceoffs, tough matchups, etc.

Then the inevitable defensive injuries piled up, and rather than knee-jerk trades for band-aid veterans, we saw 3 rookie call-ups who all saw over 15 min/game. Biega is 27, but Clendening and Corrado are only 22.

Looking back at ATOI from previous teams, the rookies who played under AV would see <10 minutes a game, play under 10 games and get sent back down. A few exceptions - Raymond, Tanev, etc. Torts had tons of rookies, but there was hardly any icetime left for the bottom-6 after the Sedins got their 20 minutes and Santorelli got his 18.

My opinion is Willie has given more opportunity to rookies than recent coaches, and rookies have had a big impact on this team, particularly during the string of injuries. This hopefully has left more gas in the tank for the Sedins and the top-4 D coming in to the playoffs.

I would also guess that Richardson and Matthias are gone, so at least one more roster spot will be left open at camp - another thing we haven't seen in recent years.

[Lloyd Braun]

Thinking back to the pre-season, most fans were anxious to get Shinkaruk and Jensen on the team above all... above even Horvat. Do we really think it's a bad thing that this didn't happen? Neither has had a particularly good year in the AHL. Shink had growing pains typical of entering his first pro season, which is fine, but he was no NHLer. Jensen seemed not to progress at all, which is worrying. He certainly didn't look like an NHLer in Utica this year. Bo played the whole season in the NHL.

How can we go back and say this was a mistake? Hell, Kenins wasn't on anybody's radar in the preseason, but he made the team based on hard work and is starting playoff games despite a relatively healthy squad. Had Jensen played as well as or better than Kenins, he'd probably be on the team right now instead.

Vey's icetime does stand out like a sore thumb, but he isn't starting in the playoffs, and is an example of playing a rookie, so it really doesn't back up your point.

What is your point again? That we had three rookies playing prominent roles this year? That a couple of our former first round picks had below expectations AHL seasons and clearly didn't belong in the NHL?

Because I don't see anything to suggest that Willie should have played more rookies this season.

I suppose there's room to argue that Corrado could have seen a few more games, but it's a pretty big stretch...

[Hockey Widow]

If eligible, Bo Horvat would have been in Utica most of the year. But he showed enough that Benning did not want him going back to junior. There was only one other option, he stays with the team.

What WD does well is roll four lines. To play on his team you have to fill a need on one of the lines. Jensen did not, does not, fill the role of a fourth liner but Kenins does. Vey stuck because of waivers and WD is loyal, maybe to a fault, but when it matters, in the playoffs, he sits Vey and plays Kenins. I for one was surprised, really. I fully expected Vey in the line up.

Because he rolls four lines, and evens out D playing times as best he can, rookies get plenty of chance on his teams. Next year I think we will see more opportunity for the kids. Because of the cap and because we have so many players that will need to clear waivers. This alone may be enough to keep Virtanen off the team next year. Early days still but I think WD is doing just fine.

[ESQ]

Because I don't see anything to suggest that Willie should have played more rookies this season.

I suppose its true that this is the best crop of prospects we've seen in a long long time, so we'd like to see more of the prospects in the NHL. But this season was also the most development we've seen on the Canucks in a long time. The last time there was this many rookies making an impact was the year after the lockout when Burrows, Kesler, Bieksa, Auld all came off the farm to have fairly significant impacts (over 40 games played).

Vey did benefit from facing waivers, but he would have been a rookie-of-the-year in this franchise most other years. I'll admit I like Vey more than most people mostly because of how good he was on the Sedins' PP unit at the start of the year.

[2Fingers]

So back to the original intention of my post, is WD the right coach to take this team through its re tool or re build or whatever we call it. The Nucks are a middle of pack team, not a contender and with the currently line up they are too good to finish in the bottom 5. It is what it is so whatever, but some decisions have to be made.

In 3 – 4 years the following players will be gone, Sedins, Burrows, Hamhuis (probably), Bieksa and Vrbata. I am only looking at players supposedly top 2 lines or pairing on the team (or at least paid like they are).

Who from the prospect list will replace these guys? We won’t know unless they (the prospects) are given a chance. I am not going to go into extreme detail on what and how to do this. I am not saying just take someone like Virtanen and put him on the 2nd line. I am not on the coaching staff nor the GM nor anything to do with the Canucks so I have no freaking idea on how a player is doing expect to see their stats. I rely on others who actually see a player in several games to make better comments on a prospect.

But to my point, players like Hansen, Higgens, Richards, etc are good character players who fill roles within an organization and on a team that is a contender they are probably more relevant. The Canucks are not real contenders so instead of having players like that the above named on the 2nd and 3rd line I prefer more prospects playing on those lines to gain the experience and to take over on the top line in 2 – 3 years. I don’t expect ever a prospect to come out and play top line unless they are drafted top 3 and then still it is iffy.

Now is the time for the Nucks to develop the next set of players, we don’t know how a player will react in the NHL until they are given a chance. To say Horvat cannot score 70 points now is ridiculous, the NHL is full of 1st line players who never make the NHL or don’t even make the 2nd line and there are players who were drafted later become top players.

An example is bring in a player like Virtanen next season, give him 3rd line minutes and as the season progresses give him a little PP time and a little PK time. When the game is 4 – 1, winning or losing then provide him more ice time. We have seen Horvat being used a little on PK and a chance to take important face offs so it can be done. Work with the prospects and bring them along, it is OK to even sit them so they are in the press box watching the game so they can see the whole ice and where/what he should be doing without the puck. Its all about player development.

This has to be done with the owners, GM and coach all on the same page. If Aqua man is all about $$$ then we will continue to see what we have and then we are stuck with hoping and praying that a miracle occurs. If WD is all about winning and not looking long term then he will not work with the prospects and be more concerned about his job which is understandable.

I am not saying gut the entire team and go with 10 rookies, this has to be a transition and done right it puts the team in a better position quicker than just trying to make the playoffs and then hope.

[Jovocop]

I completely agreed that it is time to go with youth. Kids like Virtanen, Gaunce, Jensen, Baertschi, Shinkaruk, Pedan, Clendening and Corrado should be given legitimate chances to make the team. Horvat and Kassian should get more prominent roles next season as well. As for veterans, this team should only keep the Sedins, Vrbata, Edler, Tanev, Dorsett, Hansen and Burrows. The rest could be traded for picks or just let go...

[Chef Boi RD]

The Canucks have to start weeding in the new and weeding out the old on a bigger scale than we are comfortable with. If they don't it is going to be slow miserable decline to the cellar and a long and slow journey back to elite hockey. No fucking point keeping limited vets around so we can try to sneak back door into the playoffs only to be shit canned by a young team with 6 rookies in the line-up.

[2Fingers]

The Canucks have to start weeding in the new and weeding out the old on a bigger scale than we are comfortable with. If they don't it is going to be slow miserable decline to the cellar and a long and slow journey back to elite hockey. No fucking point keeping limited vets around so we can try to sneak back door into the playoffs only to be shit canned by a young team with 6 rookies in the line-up.

RD summarized in 1 paragraph what I said in 2 full posts.

how and who is left to others to decide but will the Nucks do it or is Aqua man only interested in playoff revenue?

[Aaronp18]

how and who is left to others to decide but will the Nucks do it or is Aqua man only interested in playoff revenue?

Well the further the Canucks go in the playoffs the more they can charge for the games. It does behoove Aquilini to build a winner not just squeeze into the playoffs each year for 2-3 home dates.

Ticket prices likely go up around 30-50% per round.

It would be worth it to miss the playoffs a few years rebuilding to create a consistent winner that gets to conference finals or Cup finals on a more regular basis!

[dangler]

The Canucks have to start weeding in the new and weeding out the old on a bigger scale than we are comfortable with. If they don't it is going to be slow miserable decline to the cellar and a long and slow journey back to elite hockey. No fucking point keeping limited vets around so we can try to sneak back door into the playoffs only to be shit canned by a young team with 6 rookies in the line-up.

A few of the new might need to be weeded out as well(Vey,Mattias,Bonino) .
We got the Sedins dude, you know,regular season prowess.
Until more talent emerges i'm afraid we'll be seeing alot more "sneaking back door into the playoffs only to be shitcanned by a young team"
It's still better than sucking for a decade and no playoffs

[Topper]

Reef, you once again have lost where the team was in development. As GMMG and AV were leading a top contending team pushing for a cup there was little room for rookie errors and hence reclamation project and guys like Higgins and Lappiere were in.

Last season under Torts and with the cap constraints post lockout was an ideal year to bring in kids, however ownership has dictated there is absolutely no appetite for missing the playoffs, hence more bargain reclamation over kids and learning curves.

As much as Horvat has impressed, he could easily been a Vey clone and struggled as a rookie. Vey is a rookie thrust into an offensive role and struggling. Huge kudos to Bo for his efforts in not just sticking but also growing into a bonafide everyday NHL'er.