The Official Dave Ayres CC "All Thing Leaves" thread

[Chef Boi RD]

The Canucks losing, the Leaves winning. How's Doc?

[donlever]

This is an immensely popular thread... and serves a purpose (or two).

If you find it "ridiculous + boring"... well you know the old saying.

And c'mon Lever, we all know you're not just a "minor shrub" in this community.

You're a major shrub dude!!

*lifts hind leg*

..and the biggest dog has spoken.

Copious apologies for trodding on your sandbox.

I can do far better than following the old saying you refer to and not clicking on a particular thread......

[BigTuna]

I dunno. Did you ever think Santorelli or Winnik would be available? Bottom 6 guys are always available on-the-cheap.

As a general statement, this is pure bunk.

Some offseasons (think: the ones in which the cap barely raises and the UFA class is deep with legit middle six forwards) this is true. This past season, the 2010 offseason springs to mind, 2009 was another if memory serves.

In other offseasons, (think: the ones in which the cap raises vastly more than most teams require, and the UFA class is either shallow or poor in general) it couldn't be further from the truth. 2008 (Ron Hainsey got $4m+, Sean Avery got $4m+, Ryan Johnson got over $1m, Aaron freaking Voros got a 3 year deal on July 1st, Jason Smith, Brendan Morrison, Owen Nolan all got big contracts, Georges Laracque got a three year deal, you guys signed Hagman to that awful contract), 2011 (Ben Eager with a three year deal, Adam Pardy got $4m over 2 years, the Panthers handed out all those ridiculous deals, Vern Fiddler got a three year deal, Max Talbot got a five year deal, Mike Rupp three years, Joel Ward $12m over four years, Erik Cole and Roman Hamrlik got big money contracts, Ville Leino, Marco Sturm, Eric Belanger.. need I go on?).

2015 is shaping up to be a terrible UFA class, teams have been in the dark about where the cap is going so unless there's a doomsday scenario with the $CAD most will probably have extra money to play with.

If I was a middling NHL forward looking to cash in, I'd take 2015 to hit free agency over a lot of other seasons.

Anyway there's at least one diamond in the rough every year but if you are a fan of a team with middling (at best) management, this is an offseason you probably want them to do as little as possible.

You're using examples of all overpaid UFA's that were signed early and heavily hyped. You're forgetting about the smaller deals signed every summer. In fact, the Leaves did this last season also. They got great production for 1 million out of Mason Raymond.

[dbr]

You're using examples of all overpaid UFA's that were signed early and heavily hyped. You're forgetting about the smaller deals signed every summer. In fact, the Leaves did this last season also. They got great production for 1 million out of Mason Raymond.

You're telling me that Aaron Voros, Ben Eager, Ryan Johnson, Adam Party, etc.. were "hyped"?

In 2008 the best player signed after July 15th was Marty Reasoner. The only players signed after August 1st were Stephane Yelle and Brad Isbister (didn't make the Senators). A couple of other notable players signed after camp though, if that's what you meant.

In 2011 there was a smattering of players that moved after August 1st, the only one who would play any kind of significant role (and I'm ignoring Teemu Selanne for obvious reasons) is Kyle Wellwood.

The fact is that offseasons like 2013 and 2014 don't really come around all that often - when the conditions aren't there the few decent players get bought up quickly and at grossly inflated prices.

[Strangelove]

how am I suppose to answer how they can replace Franson? I have no idea if Franson will ever play like this again. I have no idea whom will be available.

Well then you're going to have to trust me.

Obviously you are incapable of using the build-a-roster feature at Capgeek.

And how do you know the Leaves could not trade him? Do you have a link?

Are you also incapable of using Google?

There are literally dozens of articles about Reimer demanding a trade, and Leaves trying to accomodate him.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/reim ... ple-Leaves/

http://www.thestar.com/sports/Leaves/201 ... tract.html

With his former lieutenants gone and his new assistant a tad green, Maple Leaves general manager Dave Nonis finds himself having a busier than usual summer.

That included trying to trade goalie James Reimer, an endeavour Nonis ceased on Friday, instead signing the backup to a two-year, $4.6 million (U.S.).

He will get $2.6 million next season and $2 million in 2015-16. His salary will count for $2.3 million against the cap.

“It gives James a little bit of security and shows we still believe he is a goaltender that can continue to improve, and it solidifies our goaltending position,” said Nonis.

The two-year deal, at an affordable number, will bring Reimer to unrestricted free agency and also make him more tradeable should the market for goalies open up.

You're welcome.

Do you predict doom and gloom for all other teams with regards to the cap?

No, for some teams, bad contracts are expiring... so they have the chance to improve in the off-season.

For the Leaves though, only their good contracts are expiring (I mentioned 6).

I predict "doom and gloom" for the Leaves from a position of logic.

[Strangelove]

..and the biggest dog has spoken.

Copious apologies for trodding on your sandbox.

I can do far better than following the old saying you refer to and not clicking on a particular thread......

Now now Donny, don't be that way, can't you feel the love??

Yeah, there's a lot of love around here for ole Donny.

There's also a lot of love around here for this thread.

Suck it up Buttercup...

[Strangelove]

Hurricanes 4, Leaves 1.

And so it begins.

Tuna right now:

[BigTuna]

how am I suppose to answer how they can replace Franson? I have no idea if Franson will ever play like this again. I have no idea whom will be available.

Well then you're going to have to trust me.

Obviously you are incapable of using the build-a-roster feature at Capgeek.

And how do you know the Leaves could not trade him? Do you have a link?

Are you also incapable of using Google?

There are literally dozens of articles about Reimer demanding a trade, and Leaves trying to accomodate him.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/reim ... ple-Leaves/

http://www.thestar.com/sports/Leaves/201 ... tract.html

With his former lieutenants gone and his new assistant a tad green, Maple Leaves general manager Dave Nonis finds himself having a busier than usual summer.

That included trying to trade goalie James Reimer, an endeavour Nonis ceased on Friday, instead signing the backup to a two-year, $4.6 million (U.S.).

He will get $2.6 million next season and $2 million in 2015-16. His salary will count for $2.3 million against the cap.

“It gives James a little bit of security and shows we still believe he is a goaltender that can continue to improve, and it solidifies our goaltending position,” said Nonis.

The two-year deal, at an affordable number, will bring Reimer to unrestricted free agency and also make him more tradeable should the market for goalies open up.

You're welcome.

Do you predict doom and gloom for all other teams with regards to the cap?

No, for some teams, bad contracts are expiring... so they have the chance to improve in the off-season.

For the Leaves though, only their good contracts are expiring (I mentioned 6).

I predict "doom and gloom" for the Leaves from a position of logic.

Never said he couldn't find a taker for Reimer. Are you aware he did not have to sign Reimer?

And answer my statement about Lupul. Can he be moved?

[BigTuna]

You're using examples of all overpaid UFA's that were signed early and heavily hyped. You're forgetting about the smaller deals signed every summer. In fact, the Leaves did this last season also. They got great production for 1 million out of Mason Raymond.

You're telling me that Aaron Voros, Ben Eager, Ryan Johnson, Adam Party, etc.. were "hyped"?

In 2008 the best player signed after July 15th was Marty Reasoner. The only players signed after August 1st were Stephane Yelle and Brad Isbister (didn't make the Senators). A couple of other notable players signed after camp though, if that's what you meant.

In 2011 there was a smattering of players that moved after August 1st, the only one who would play any kind of significant role (and I'm ignoring Teemu Selanne for obvious reasons) is Kyle Wellwood.

The fact is that offseasons like 2013 and 2014 don't really come around all that often - when the conditions aren't there the few decent players get bought up quickly and at grossly inflated prices.

Do you find any coincidence that 2013 and 2014 come after the new CBA? Because since it was signed we're seeing cheap, quality bottom 6 guys looking for jobs every summer. Those are the players now being pushed-out due to the cap.

[Strangelove]

Are you aware he did not have to sign Reimer?

Yes, I said earlier in this thread: He should have walked away from Reimer.

answer my statement about Lupul. Can he be moved?

NO.

31-year-old injury-prone forward signed until 2018 @ $5.2M cap-hit.

Next season his actual pay is $6.7M.

It's best you hear it from a friend Tuna.

The Leaves are hooped.

[BigTuna]

Are you aware he did not have to sign Reimer?

Yes, I said earlier in this thread: He should have walked away from Reimer.

answer my statement about Lupul. Can he be moved?

NO.

31-year-old injury-prone forward signed until 2018 @ $5.2M cap-hit.

Next season his actual pay is $6.7M.

It's best you hear it from a friend Tuna.

The Leaves are hooped.

You and I have had this argument in previous years and you are always wrong. Last time you guaranteed me Kadri and Franson were goners when they were RFA because of the Leaves cap issues. You were wrong.

You want to live in a world where the Leaves can't shed salary. Fine. No one can get traded! they only have to add salary. they are screwed!

James Reimer will easily be moved. Panik/Winnik and Santorelli DO NOT all have to be kept. If the Leaves sign Franson for the 5 years/6 million he's going to get as a UFA, everyone laughs at them. I want to see them let him walk. They have tremendous young talent waiting for a chance.

[Strangelove]

You and I have had this argument in previous years and you are always wrong. Last time you guaranteed me Kadri and Franson were goners when they were RFA because of the Leaves cap issues. You were wrong.

I wasn't wrong.

They shouldn't have put the big squeeze on those two.

They needed to sign those two relatively cheaply while it was still possible.

THOSE are the two they should have given long-term contracts like what they gave Gardiner.

All that squeezing of Franson/Kadri will come back to haunt them next summer.

Meanwhile Gardiner is HORRIBLE.

I've been reading at a Leaf site all season about how HORRIBLE everyone thinks Gardiner is.

Did you see him knock that puck out of the defensive zone tonight?

Blade 10-feet high, delay of game penalty.

And WHY??

Because he didn't want to chase the puck down and take the hit.

(ffs the only thing he does well is skate, he would have easily won that race)

He always plays that way: gutless + stupid = bad combination.

I'm not exaggerating when I say he's the stupidest NHL player ever.

WAY stupider than stupid stupid stupid Booth.

And hey at least Booth plays with courage.

The guy can't play defense AT ALL... and he has 8 points on the season.

5 years at over $4M = one of the many bad contracts the Leaves have.

Meanwhile 90% of their good contracts expire this summer.

It's best you hear it from me.

Leaves are going to be a bottom-feeder for the foreseeable future.

Speaking of "guarantees"... you "guaranteed" everyone here the Leaves would make the playoffs last season.

OMG I've been trying to help you for SO long dude!

I want to see them let Franson walk. They have tremendous young talent waiting for a chance.

Tell me who will be the Top 8 dee on the Leaves next season.

[BigTuna]

You and I have had this argument in previous years and you are always wrong. Last time you guaranteed me Kadri and Franson were goners when they were RFA because of the Leaves cap issues. You were wrong.

I wasn't wrong.

Actually, you were. You said they wouldn't return due to the Leaves cap situation.

Kadri I get. He will be signed long term. Very good top 6 forward who is getting better. Franson? No thanks. Was terrible last season and is having a career year in a contract year. I think they let him walk. And like I said, guaranteed if they signed him Canuck fans talk about how screwed they are with his contract now.

Stuart Percy is a tremendous talent. He needs serious ice-time next season. And that's not including other options that may be available. Morgan Rielly is a blue chipper. He'll get more ice-time next season. To write-off Gardiner is very premature. Franson at 26 looked worse than Gardiner last season.

[Strangelove]

I wasn't wrong.

Actually, you were. You said they wouldn't return due to the Leaves cap situation.

I said many things about Kadri and Franson that summer (summer of 2013 right?)

I said that given their cap situation, the Leaves should + might trade one or both.

Finally I concluded (before they were re-signed) that the Leaves would buyout Liles and re-sign them.

Turned out I was wrong about a Liles buyout but

... after they were re-signed, I continued to mock the Leaves for putting themselves into such a position

(position wherein they couldn't wrap these two up long-term on cheap contracts).

And now here we are 2 years later, each guy wanting/deserving $5M-per.

Two years ago Franson was looking for a long-term contract at $3.5M.

No doubt Kadri would have taken the same.

THAT was my point 2 years ago.

It seems like they realized their mistake and didn't want to repeat it in Gardiner's case.

So they overreacted and, a few months ago, signed Gardiner to a 5-year $20M deal.

They chose the wrong defenseman because Franson is a quality NHL dee, Gardiner NOT.

Kadri I get. He will be signed long term. Very good top 6 forward who is getting better. Franson? No thanks. Was terrible last season and is having a career year in a contract year.

How do you know Kadri isn't the one having the "career year in a contract year"?

Just saying.

Franson had a "bad" season last year because the Leaves promised him a big contract if he played more physically.

So he focused on that, and led the league in hits.

Then, this past summer, Leaves reneged saying his numbers had slipped.

That was the second time the Leaves stabbed Franson in the back.

One year previous they had promised him a long-term deal if he put up numbers.

Which he did.

Then, like I say, they gave him a 1-year and demanded he play more physically.

They've been jerking this guy around for years and, now that he's put it all together, he's gonna walk.

Imagine how confused + pissed he was when they handed Dum Dum Gardiner that contract!

Combine this with all the bad contracts on that team and...

How does Nonis still have a job!

Stuart Percy is a tremendous talent. He needs serious ice-time next season. And that's not including other options that may be available. Morgan Rielly is a blue chipper. He'll get more ice-time next season. To write-off Gardiner is very premature. Franson at 26 looked worse than Gardiner last season.

Percy has done nothing since the day he was drafted to show he belongs in the NHL.

That's not likely to change any time soon.

He's not an "offensive dee", he's not a "defensive dee", he's not a "well-rounded dee"...

Just what the hell is he??

Whatever he is, he certainly won't be ready to step in next season.

Yeah, Rielly seems like "a blue chipper".

But then so did Schenn at about the same point.

Gardiner is HORRIBLE.

It's beginning to look like the only defenseman on the 2015-16 Leaves with a brain will be a 38-year-old Robidas

... and yeah, he's pretty much broken physically.

[BigTuna]

I'm not sure where the hell you pulled that info from. were you in the room when they negotiated?

The fact is, Franson has been good 2 out of 4 years in Toronto. I'm not sold he's worthy to keep. But hey, even if he walks, Burke stole him for nothing.

Kadri was one of the highest scoring players in the NHL 2 years ago. Last year people claimed it was a bad year for him. you know what? He scored 50 points with limited ice-time. He is the real deal. Very good #2 centre at the very least.