2014/15 Line Up projections

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Hockey Widow
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by Hockey Widow »

Betamax wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:Unless Horvat really blows everyone away at camp I'm all for sending him back to junior. Richardson has one year left on his deal and he was pretty useful for us last year. I'd rather keep his experience around this year and let him walk as a FA next year, opening up a roster spot. Now I suppose if a Benning could trade him for a third or fourth round pick clearing a roster spot for a deserving Horvat ok.

Hansen has a limited NTC so he is moveable too so I could see that working as well.
If Horvat isn't considered good enough to crack this roster ... it would be one of the biggest disappointments/stories this Training Camp.

I'm thinking he'll be given every chance to make the team. The fact that it's either the NHL or back to junior would make me think he gets to start the season with the big team unless his plays clearly shows he's not good enough to stick around. 8-)

I agree 90%, sounds like we are saying the same thing, almost. If he is deserving he should get a roster spot and I too think he will at least get a nine game look see.

Where i disagree is in saying if he can't crack this line up it will be a big disappointment story. I find that a little melodramatic. If he isn't ready he isn't ready. But I do agree he will be given every chance and, as Benninghas said, a tie goes to the rookie.
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by SKYO »

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:Unless Horvat really blows everyone away at camp I'm all for sending him back to junior. Richardson has one year left on his deal and he was pretty useful for us last year. I'd rather keep his experience around this year and let him walk as a FA next year, opening up a roster spot. Now I suppose if a Benning could trade him for a third or fourth round pick clearing a roster spot for a deserving Horvat ok.

Hansen has a limited NTC so he is moveable too so I could see that working as well.
It's fairly obvious (to me at least), that Benning has set things up so that the kids will not be thrust into the NHL unless they are ready. It's better to have to ship out a veteran because a prospect is ready, than have to find a veteran because a prospect isn't.

If Horvat shines, that's fantastic news for the Franchise because he's proven he can out-duel a bona-fide NHL'er for NHL ice time. Guys like Shinkaruk, Jensen, Gaunce etc., I'm more than happy letting season on the farm. More TOI, no pressure, actual talent to call up when injuries occur. S'all good.

The days of Darren Archibald-esque call-ups when a skill player like Daniel Sedin goes down are over...
Too lazy to google but has any GM shipped out a veteran player in October cause a rookie made the team out of preseason play?
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by 2Fingers »

It's fairly obvious (to me at least), that Benning has set things up so that the kids will not be thrust into the NHL unless they are ready. It's better to have to ship out a veteran because a prospect is ready, than have to find a veteran because a prospect isn't.

If Horvat shines, that's fantastic news for the Franchise because he's proven he can out-duel a bona-fide NHL'er for NHL ice time. Guys like Shinkaruk, Jensen, Gaunce etc., I'm more than happy letting season on the farm. More TOI, no pressure, actual talent to call up when injuries occur. S'all good.

The days of Darren Archibald-esque call-ups when a skill player like Daniel Sedin goes down are over...[/quote]

So 2 weeks at training camp will show is a player can shine?

What defines "shine" for a rookie his age?

He is a rookie so mistakes are expected, if he cant skate then he will never be ready, there are different types of reasons why a rookie wont make the team.

Unless he completely sucks and is not ready then the Canucks must give rookies a real look in the NHL. Not saying this only about Horvat but all rookies.
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by Island Nucklehead »

Reefer2 wrote:So 2 weeks at training camp will show is a player can shine?

What defines "shine" for a rookie his age?
I'm not interested in getting into a dictionary war here, Reef. Put it this way, Horvat needs to play well enough to unseat a veteran. For a 19 year old, that means playing pretty f'n good.
He is a rookie so mistakes are expected, if he cant skate then he will never be ready, there are different types of reasons why a rookie wont make the team.

Unless he completely sucks and is not ready then the Canucks must give rookies a real look in the NHL. Not saying this only about Horvat but all rookies.
Sure. And he'll still be a rookie next year, and the year after that, and the year after that... there's nothing that says the Canucks HAVE to play TEENAGE rookies.

Frankly, I don't see any problem with him going back to Junior. His ELC slides, theoreticallly giving the Canucks a more polished/mature player at a lower salary when he's 21/22. He can go back to junior to (hopefullly) dominate, play a major role for Canada at the Worlds, and not be concerned about being a "savior" for what could easily be a struggling franchise. If he makes the team, awesome, we have a bonafide youngster to watch mature and grow. I won't be too upset either way. Bo Horvat is not going to make or break the season for the Canucks this year, so it's not worth investing too much emotion into his situation.

I do think that camp will be one of the more competitive ones in recent seasons. There's almost nobody that can look to last season and think their spot is guaranteed, and our forward prospect pool is the deepest its been in a long time. Should make for some good battles.
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by The Brown Wizard »

^good post I.N.^

I'd say Bonino has a pretty solid grip on 2C until some big strides are made with our young centres anyway so what's the hurry.

3 and 4 centres spots aren't where you ideally want to develop regardless.

No I'd say Bo will be heading back to the O
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by Jovocop »

Uncle dans leg wrote:^good post I.N.^

I'd say Bonino has a pretty solid grip on 2C until some big strides are made with our young centres anyway so what's the hurry.

3 and 4 centres spots aren't where you ideally want to develop regardless.

No I'd say Bo will be heading back to the O
There is nothing wrong for Horvat to start playing in the NHL as a 3rd line centre. If he can outscore Bonino, Horvat will automatically promote to the second line. If not, he can still learn the pro game. However, Horvat should earn the spot first.
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by Rumsfeld »

Jovocop wrote:There is nothing wrong for Horvat to start playing in the NHL as a 3rd line centre. If he can outscore Bonino, Horvat will automatically promote to the second line. If not, he can still learn the pro game. However, Horvat should earn the spot first.
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by Strangelove »

Does anyone agree/disagree with me about how many minutes our 4th line will play?

I'm saying it will be more like a... 3b line if you will... than a typical 4th line.

Sorta gives a rookie like Horvat one extra line to crack than usual.

(if it were a 5-minute 4th line, probably be better to send Bo back to Junior)

Not sure if I'm communicating this very well, on my way out the door....

Does anyone agree with me that IF they want the 4th line to play 10+ minutes

.... and IF Horvat has a solid camp (as hoped/expected)...

... that 5-min-per-gm Sestito could be shipped out in favour of Horvat.

(check out my lines below)

Maybe someone should start a "How Many Games Will Horvat Play Prediction" thread.

Zero seems unlikely to me.

9 sounds like the safe bet.

But 40... might... be what I'd predict.

He... might... be the 13th forward who replaces injured/benched forwards.

Can he play... both ... wings?
Strangelove wrote: Sedin – Sedin – Vrbata
Burrows – Bonino – Kassian
Higgins – Vey – Hansen
Matthias – Richardson/Horvat – Dorsett
Richardson/Horvat
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by Betamax »

Strangelove wrote:Does anyone agree/disagree with me about how many minutes our 4th line will play?

I'm saying it will be more like a... 3b line if you will... than a typical 4th line.

Sorta gives a rookie like Horvat one extra line to crack than usual.

(if it were a 5-minute 4th line, probably be better to send Bo back to Junior)

Not sure if I'm communicating this very well, on my way out the door....

Does anyone agree with me that IF they want the 4th line to play 10+ minutes

.... and IF Horvat has a solid camp (as hoped/expected)...

... that 5-min-per-gm Sestito could be shipped out in favour of Horvat.

(check out my lines below)

Maybe someone should start a "How Many Games Will Horvat Play Prediction" thread.

Zero seems unlikely to me.

9 sounds like the safe bet.

But 40... might... be what I'd predict.

He... might... be the 13th forward who replaces injured/benched forwards.

Can he play... both ... wings?
Strangelove wrote: Sedin – Sedin – Vrbata
Burrows – Bonino – Kassian
Higgins – Vey – Hansen
Matthias – Richardson/Horvat – Dorsett
Richardson/Horvat
GMJB stated that he wanted the Canucks' to be a "four line team" ....... not like the b.s. we saw last season. But even if Sestito averages 6:27 MPG like he did last season, they could double shift a winger(s) that "is playing well" during the game to take Sestito's spot on the line when he's in the box for 5Min (to try to justify his role on the team) or just being a bench warmer. 8-)
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by Island Nucklehead »

Strangelove wrote:He... might... be the 13th forward who replaces injured/benched forwards.
No. Not as an extra forward. I'm fine keeping him in a 3rd/4th line role, provided he plays real minutes consistently. Maybe sprinkle in some special teams time here or there (PK?). He seems to have the positional awareness to not be a liability. But 6mins/game is not going to cut it, and 13th forward needlessly wastes a year of his ELC and doesn't get him nearly enough experience.

Why would we want him as a 13th forward? If someone gets hurt, guys like Gaunce and Shinkaruk are a phone call away.

He can either play, or not. I'd rather have him leading a team in London than hanging out in a pressbox in BC. It's not like he's "done everything he can possibly do" in Junior. There are still aspects of his game he can work on, and I'd say if he's not good enough for around 10mins/night in the NHL he's probably better off playing 20+ per night in London.
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by Groovypippin »

Looking at this:

Strangelove wrote:
Sedin – Sedin – Vrbata
Burrows – Bonino – Kassian
Higgins – Vey – Hansen
Matthias – Richardson/Horvat – Dorsett
Richardson/Horvat

It's clear to me that unless Bo Horvat is a complete revelation at camp this year he will NOT be making the team. There is too much NHL quality talent on our 3/4 lines to justify burning an ELC year for Horvat IMO.

It is NOT some sort of a disaster if he goes back to junior. I personally think it would be beneficial for him to have a big offensive year in a dominant role and be a major force on our World Junior team. Generational talents and superstars or players on dreadful teams play as teenagers in today's NHL. Bo Horvat is not the former and the Vancouver Canucks are not the latter.
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by Betamax »

Hockey Widow wrote:
Betamax wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:Unless Horvat really blows everyone away at camp I'm all for sending him back to junior. Richardson has one year left on his deal and he was pretty useful for us last year. I'd rather keep his experience around this year and let him walk as a FA next year, opening up a roster spot. Now I suppose if a Benning could trade him for a third or fourth round pick clearing a roster spot for a deserving Horvat ok.

Hansen has a limited NTC so he is moveable too so I could see that working as well.
If Horvat isn't considered good enough to crack this roster ... it would be one of the biggest disappointments/stories this Training Camp.

I'm thinking he'll be given every chance to make the team. The fact that it's either the NHL or back to junior would make me think he gets to start the season with the big team unless his plays clearly shows he's not good enough to stick around. 8-)

I agree 90%, sounds like we are saying the same thing, almost. If he is deserving he should get a roster spot and I too think he will at least get a nine game look see.

Where i disagree is in saying if he can't crack this line up it will be a big disappointment story. I find that a little melodramatic. If he isn't ready he isn't ready. But I do agree he will be given every chance and, as Benninghas said, a tie goes to the rookie.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, here's the thing cc HW. Bo was traded for The Cory, so there is pressure from giving up an IMPACT player asset that would have made the team better in the here and now to some unknown futures. How the Hell could they sell that trade to the core? I guess Kesler didn't buy what the former management was trying to sell him and he did what was best for him and his family and wanted and got out. IMO, that was a fair request under the circumstances, given where the team had devolved into.

When Bo Horvat was drafted, it was stated that he was one of the few players at that drafted that was "physically" ready to play in the NHL as an 18 year old. Under Coach Torts, who despite saying he wanted to integrate younger players onto the roster ..... Bo literally wasn't given a chance -- he was put on lines with bottom sixers and not given an opportunity to play with the team's better players.

I think it will change this season under Willie D. and the fact that I'm not convinced another year in junior is better for his development than getting ice time and training at the pro level ...... which can seemingly only happen in the NHL.

I'm not sure if the Canucks can send him oversees to play pro hockey in Europe like what they did with Jensen. That may be a possibility but less likely since he's a Canadian and not a European and that would be like a Canadian that fully developed under Hockey Canada, sticking a middle finger to the CHL, so I doubt that's a realistic option.

A year later, this physically "ready to play" and allegedly being touted by others here as "best prospect" in the system, Bo Horvat, should be in a much better position to make the squad.

If not, therein lies the disappointment.

In the best case scenario, he's been favourably compared to Ryan O'Reilly and Sean Couturier, two players that made their NHL club and had impact in said teams as 18 years old.

Bo is now 19 years old .......................... 8-)
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by Hockey Widow »

^^^
Oh I get that it will be a disappointment to you, and you can cry on my shoulder if it happens. But please don't try to project your personal disappointments as if they will be collectively shared by all. The biggest franchise disappointment, really?!?!?! Ok, so you have now explained how and why you will personally feel sad if he doesn't make it. For me, I don't share that sense of sadness. If he is good enough, he will make it. If he doesn't make it, it means he wasn't ready.

I don't see that as a franchise failure or the beginning of a 40 year struggle. I also don't see it meaning he is no damn good, just he isn't ready at this point in his career. Now if in ten years he still hasn't made it then I'll place him up there with the Josh Holden's of the world. But to try to turn this into something huge and franchise or player defining is a, well, little mellow dramatic. Understand?
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by ukcanuck »

Hockey Widow wrote:^^^
Oh I get that it will be a disappointment to you, and you can cry on my shoulder if it happens. But please don't try to project your personal disappointments as if they will be collectively shared by all. The biggest franchise disappointment, really?!?!?! Ok, so you have now explained how and why you will personally feel sad if he doesn't make it. For me, I don't share that sense of sadness. If he is good enough, he will make it. If he doesn't make it, it means he wasn't ready.

I don't see that as a franchise failure or the beginning of a 40 year struggle. I also don't see it meaning he is no damn good, just he isn't ready at this point in his career. Now if in ten years he still hasn't made it then I'll place him up there with the Josh Holden's of the world. But to try to turn this into something huge and franchise or player defining is a, well, little mellow dramatic. Understand?
I agree Hdub, I think its unfair to put the Cory trade pressure on the guy. BoHo has to be given the best chance to succeed on his own terms. If he is ready and can contribute and earn a place on the team great, if not, great let him find the place he can best succeed at a lower level.
Sending him down or keeping him up due to outside concerns is bad management
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Re: 2014/15 Line Up projections

Post by SKYO »

Strangelove wrote:Does anyone agree/disagree with me about how many minutes our 4th line will play?

I'm saying it will be more like a... 3b line if you will... than a typical 4th line.
4th line should get a few more minutes per game next season, especially if Hansen sticks around and is on the 4th.

Look for Willie to give em about 9-11 minutes per game, depending on the opponent.
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