If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would ya?

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Locked

If trading Horvat + 6th pick was the only way to acquire the 2014 1st pick, would ya do it?

Poll ended at Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:43 am

YES! YES! YES!
9
18%
NO means NO.
37
76%
Other (Please explain in post)
3
6%
 
Total votes: 49

User avatar
herb
CC Legend
Posts: 3014
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by herb »

Our 6th plus Horvat is way too much.

I haven't seen enough, statistically or otherwise, to convince me that Reinhart is dramatically better than Bennett, Ekblad or Draisaitl. Central Scouting has Bennett ranked first overall and Ekblad ahead of Reinhart. I've seen rankings over the year that have had Ekblad and Draisaitl first overall as well.

Now, I can be convinced that trading up from sixth to fourth to guarantee a shot at one of these guys may be worthwhile. But, then again the final ISS rankings have Dal Colle ahead of Bennett and Draisaitl and Nylander ahead of Draisaitl.
Boston Canucker
CC 1st Team All-Star
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:30 am

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Boston Canucker »

No one has yet made the case that Horvat + #6 is the only way to get the top pick. and to be honest, I don't see why it needs to be presumed as such, as if it's either do that deal or there is no getting Reinhart. It's a false choice. So, no, don't trade Horvat, find another way other than trading our top prospect.
User avatar
Puck
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1096
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Victoria, BC

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Puck »

Well-said Herb. IF Reinhart is not the consensus best in the draft, I say no for the reason's Diehard1 gave. You still have the possibility of Daigle-like failures and hockey requires depth. It's not basketball where one guy can truly elevate a team on his own.
Boston Canucker
CC 1st Team All-Star
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:30 am

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Boston Canucker »

SKYO wrote:
Boston Canucker wrote:
The Brown Knight wrote:For me, it boils down to this:
Get the best player available possible, and build your future core around the best player available.
Get Reinhart.
If Horvat's upside is a Kesler/Bergeron comparison, then you absolutely keep him. I'd suggest that Bergeron is THE most valuable forward on the Bruins. I think they'd give up anyone else before him, if they had to. YEs, I think the hope for Horvat is that he is a future Kesler or Bergeron, and if so, he's very much someone you keep. there are many ways to skin a cat, if Tallon starts the negotiations with Horvat that is his first play, it's the start of the negotiations, not the end. There are other ways to do it. As I said, the #6 and #10 pick is nothing to sneeze at for Tallon.
They key with all round two way centers like Bergeron/Kesler/M Richards is they got a bonafide point producing machine center ahead of them, do we have any centers like that for the foreseeable future?

Cassels is already a two-way center who can play like Horvat, just not as many points.

Hank has only a few good years left, we need a replacement for him asap.
So, to use the Boston analogy, what you're saying is the Canucks need to find a David Krejci? Or for the LA example another Kopitar? Yes, Henrik was drafted #3 overall, but Krecji, Kopitar etc., were not. In fact, either could have been had with the #6 pick...easy. Point being, that #1 center ahead of Horvat does not have to come from the #1 pick, at least it did not from 2 of the 3 teams you reference as examples. Benning knows this, so he can either force Tallon to find another way, or look at the #6 pick as a place to find a very valuable player.
User avatar
SKYO
CC Legend
Posts: 11936
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by SKYO »

Hockey Widow wrote:
At the time the ownership in Florida was not prepared to spend past the cap floor. Garrison had to leave if he wanted his payday.
Yeah it could very well Garrison + #6 + fringes....wtf is fringes - an extra pick or lower prospect.
Which should satisfy the Horvat lovers.

The love for Horvat here is insane in Canuck land btw, sure he can be like a future Kesler, but I'd much rather secure a #1 center like Reinhart, high scoring centers ya know the types that are more likely to win a Conn Smythe trophy instead of a Selke trophy?
A long time ago, a baseball player remarked: "If I owned a ballclub, I'd hire a $5,000 coach and a $15,000 scout."
User avatar
The Brown Knight
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1033
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:42 am

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by The Brown Knight »

Boston Canucker wrote:If Horvat's upside is a Kesler/Bergeron comparison, then you absolutely keep him. I'd suggest that Bergeron is THE most valuable forward on the Bruins. I think they'd give up anyone else before him, if they had to. YEs, I think the hope for Horvat is that he is a future Kesler or Bergeron, and if so, he's very much someone you keep. there are many ways to skin a cat, if Tallon starts the negotiations with Horvat that is his first play, it's the start of the negotiations, not the end. There are other ways to do it. As I said, the #6 and #10 pick is nothing to sneeze at for Tallon.
I agree with you to a large extent, but here's the thing: As great as guys like Kesler/Bergeron/Richards are, what if you had a realistic shot of having the next Tavares/Getzlaf/Kopitar on your hands? (i.e. a bona-fide #1 franchise center).

Take a look at the last 10+ 1st round picks:

Alexander Ovechkin
Sidney Crosby
Erik Johnson
Patrick Kane
Steven Stamkos
John Tavares
Taylor Hall
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
Nail Yakupov
Nathan MacKinnon

Out of these 10 first round picks, I would argue that 7 of these 10 were bona-fide home runs. The only ones that were not, were Erik Johnson, RNH, and Nail Yakupov.........although the verdict is still out on these 3. Johnson is a defenseman, and Yakupov is a RW'er.

Basically - I think what the last 10+ years of drafting is telling us is that if there is a Center to be had that is worthy of the #1 pick, they will almost always live up to the promise more times than not. I think the last decade is different from the 90's, in that, the #1 picks (centers) are far more likely to be a 'sure thing.'

We must also keep in mind that Benning has an eye for talent..........as he proved in Boston. Benning clearly has a hard-on for Reinhart and so it's entirely possible that he sees something in him that a lot of us are not.

There's obviously risk involved in 'trading up' for Reinhart, but I think we should bite the proverbial boner and do it.
"I post the Brown Way" ~ Connor McHindu"

The Dark Indian Rises
Betamax
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: @betamax1080p

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax »

Boston Canucker wrote:If Horvat's upside is a Kesler/Bergeron comparison, then you absolutely keep him. I'd suggest that Bergeron is THE most valuable forward on the Bruins. I think they'd give up anyone else before him, if they had to. YEs, I think the hope for Horvat is that he is a future Kesler or Bergeron, and if so, he's very much someone you keep. there are many ways to skin a cat, if Tallon starts the negotiations with Horvat that is his first play, it's the start of the negotiations, not the end.
I think it comes to a question of probabilities. What are the chances of Horvat becoming the next Kesler/Bergeron vs. the next Malhotra or Denis Pederson and whoever they pick at No. 6 and the projections they make of said pick versus the chance of The Son of Paul to become a true No. 1 Centre.
There are other ways to do it. As I said, the #6 and #10 pick is nothing to sneeze at for Tallon.
Of course there is but if the "rumors" out there is ultimately the make or break on whether Tallon will release his claws on the No. 1 pick and would you give up Horvat + 6th is the point of this thread, not trying to find other ways to make the deal happen.

I mean, I didn't know the Canucks have secured the #10 pick as well. If they have, of course, I'd flip it with the 6th over a Horvat and 6th but would that be enough for Tallon or he'd just keep the pick or trade it to another team? :mex:
Last edited by Betamax on Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
SKYO
CC Legend
Posts: 11936
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by SKYO »

Boston Canucker wrote:
So, to use the Boston analogy, what you're saying is the Canucks need to find a David Krejci? Or for the LA example another Kopitar? Yes, Henrik was drafted #3 overall, but Krecji, Kopitar etc., were not. In fact, either could have been had with the #6 pick...easy. Point being, that #1 center ahead of Horvat does not have to come from the #1 pick, at least it did not from 2 of the 3 teams you reference as examples. Benning knows this, so he can either force Tallon to find another way, or look at the #6 pick as a place to find a very valuable player.
Do you see any potential picks after the top 5 that can be like Krecji/Kopitar or do the Canucks have anyone that can be a high scoring center down the line? NOPE we don't have anyone like that thanks to the years of so so drafting. I know our drafting has been better the past few years, but we rarely get that lucky to acquire talent such as Kopitar in the later rounds, like Boston, LA, Detroit. Point being instead of relying on our so so scouts drafting record, I'd say secure that high pick to increase the chances of finally drafting a top tier center.

This team will have a high #6 pick this year for the first time in 15 years, if you can move up to get that high probable #1 center, imo you make whatever moves you can to get it, as said player could very well be our next franchise center, there's a better chance for that happening with Sam compared to Horvat.
A long time ago, a baseball player remarked: "If I owned a ballclub, I'd hire a $5,000 coach and a $15,000 scout."
Boston Canucker
CC 1st Team All-Star
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:30 am

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Boston Canucker »

SKYO wrote:
Boston Canucker wrote:
So, to use the Boston analogy, what you're saying is the Canucks need to find a David Krejci? Or for the LA example another Kopitar? Yes, Henrik was drafted #3 overall, but Krecji, Kopitar etc., were not. In fact, either could have been had with the #6 pick...easy. Point being, that #1 center ahead of Horvat does not have to come from the #1 pick, at least it did not from 2 of the 3 teams you reference as examples. Benning knows this, so he can either force Tallon to find another way, or look at the #6 pick as a place to find a very valuable player.
Do you see any potential picks after the top 5 that can be like Krecji/Kopitar or do the Canucks have anyone that can be a high scoring center down the line? NOPE we don't have anyone like that thanks to the years of so so drafting. I know our drafting has been better the past few years, but we rarely get that lucky to acquire talent such as Kopitar in the later rounds, like Boston, LA, Detroit. Point being instead of relying on our so so scouts drafting record, I'd say secure that high pick to increase the chances of finally drafting a top tier center.

This team will have a high #6 pick this year for the first time in 15 years, if you can move up to get that high probable #1 center, imo you make whatever moves you can to get it, as said player could very well be our next franchise center, there's a better chance for that happening with Sam compared to Horvat.
Fine, then do it without giving up Horvat...oh wait, the premise here is that's the only way, why, because that's the rumor, one tweeted by the never-reliable Dave Pratt. I'm not buying the hyper constrained hypothetical of this thread, Horvat or Reinhart, either/or., can't have both, why, because of what the rumors say, rumors that never said, I believe, Tallon has set this out as his drop dead only way to do it.
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
Posts: 16062
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Hockey Widow »

I tend to agree that this is an overblown rumour. I can't see the Canucks giving up two high first round picks for the first overall in a year where there is no consensus on the number one. I.E. No trusted franchise pick. I can see them swapping the 6 plus a roster player that Florida would want to help them moving forward, or a solid prospect not called Horvat.I still say deal with the Kesler situation first, one way or the other, then move forward from there. If we trade Kesler and get close to asking price then moving pieces/picks to move up makes more sense.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Canuck-One
CC 1st Team All-Star
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:49 am
Location: Living the Life

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Canuck-One »

The original question was, would I give up Horvat + the 6th for the 1st overall and my answer is still no. You keep the pick. You trade Kesler to Anaheim for the 10th overall and either Bonino or Etem. This gives us the opportunity to take Nylander and Vertanin. It doesn't guarantee anything, but, the chance to take both far outweighs the odds of a Reinhart, who as it turns out isn't even the consensus best in this draft, turning into a franchise center. THREE QUALITY PLAYERS and the chance that Nylander could turn out to be the best player in this draft. Red Line has reported him as insanely talented, what do you not understand about this. You posters who argue that Reinhart is a true franchise center are simply dreaming. Perhaps, maybe, if, one day. There is no agreement amongst those who do this for a living that he is even the best center in the draft. NO, NO, NO, you keep the draft. If however they will take #6 and a D like Garrison or Edler (who Linden said is going nowhere) you make the deal. You still make the deal with Anaheim for the 10th + Bonino or Etem.
User avatar
SKYO
CC Legend
Posts: 11936
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by SKYO »

Can't wait to get Reinhart!
he'll help sell tickets, he'll help us win much quicker than any other prospect we have and/or 2014 draftee we could get.
A long time ago, a baseball player remarked: "If I owned a ballclub, I'd hire a $5,000 coach and a $15,000 scout."
Betamax
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: @betamax1080p

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax »

via: http://canucks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=722296

Article from CDC ...........

Should the Canucks trade up?
Tuesday, 10.06.2014 / 2:20 PM / Features
By Jeff Angus
Would Vancouver entertain the idea of packaging up Bo Horvat with the 6th overall pick for Reinhart? Horvat may not have Reinhart’s upside, but moving a really talented young center and a high pick for another talented young center may seem like nothing more than a lateral move. Some scouts question Horvat’s ultimate upside, but there are few weaknesses in his game and he should be a full-time NHL player for a long time beginning this fall. And wouldn’t it be nice to be able to build around a 1-2 punch of Reinhart and Horvat down the middle for the next decade?
I don't think the framing of the move being "lateral" is the proper word to use. More like a BOLD move that will take years to determine it was the right trade to make. :mex:
Betamax
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: @betamax1080p

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax »

Hockey Widow wrote:I tend to agree that this is an overblown rumour. I can't see the Canucks giving up two high first round picks for the first overall in a year where there is no consensus on the number one. I.E. No trusted franchise pick. I can see them swapping the 6 plus a roster player that Florida would want to help them moving forward, or a solid prospect not called Horvat.I still say deal with the Kesler situation first, one way or the other, then move forward from there. If we trade Kesler and get close to asking price then moving pieces/picks to move up makes more sense.
SKYO wrote:Can't wait to get Reinhart!
he'll help sell tickets, he'll help us win much quicker than any other prospect we have and/or 2014 draftee we could get.
So on TEAM RADIO, the Director of Scouting for mckeen's Hockey was on at the 1pm hour today and revealed their TOP 4 picks. Rated The Son of Paul the best player available, followed by the other Sam and then Ekblad followed by the 'The Deutschland Dangler'.

On the Son of Paul, they mentioned his Hockey IQ was the best amongst his peers, his performance in the Playoffs was "off the solar system" or something related to outer space and then compared him to HOFer Ron Francis.

The way he's been described, he sounds like a RHS version of Henrik but more inclined to shoot and score goals rather than defer to his linemates. That sounds like "franchise" C material to me. Not in the Gretzky, Mario or Sid Class but the one below it. :mex:
Betamax
CC Hall of Fan Member
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: @betamax1080p

Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax »

Betamax wrote:Not one, not two, not three, but four current Corner members of TEAM YES! YES! YES!
nuckster wrote:Yes I would - no balls, no glory.
The Brown Knight wrote:I've had a change of heart........quite drastically actually.

Yes - I would do Bo Horvat + 6th overall pick for Sam Reinhart.
SKYO wrote:Ultimately this helps sway the decision to yes I would certainly trade our 1st + BoHo for a certified #1 center in Reinhart, it almost seems inevitable.
You can add Betamax's vote to TEAM YES! .... Why? Because in this circumstance, Betamax has come to the conclusion that indeed, "Safe is Death." 8-)



How good is that? :mex:

BTW, you have the ability to change your vote up until the morning before the day of the Draft if you're the flip flopping kinda poster.
So, it seems that the majority of the "fanbase" @ the corner are against this move. I wonder, how many of this very same "fanbase" blindly supported the hire of that Idiot Coach? :hmmm:

That, duh, makes me hope that GMJB pulls the trigger ........ :mex:
Locked