If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would ya?

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If trading Horvat + 6th pick was the only way to acquire the 2014 1st pick, would ya do it?

Poll ended at Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:43 am

YES! YES! YES!
9
18%
NO means NO.
37
76%
Other (Please explain in post)
3
6%
 
Total votes: 49

Betamax
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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:31 am

Jovocop wrote:
Canuck-One wrote:I'm just not seeing how 1 guy is going to be better than 3. You guys want to give up the potential of Horvat plus the chance of Nylander AND Vertanin for Reinhart. Seriously that is a lot to give up for one guy. Nylander is a fantastic talent, with speed and exceptional Hockey IQ. An insanely talented player as described by Red Line reports, with the ability to skate through the other team to put the puck in the net. Vertanin has great hands, wheels and toughness and is one of the best finishers in the draft. Horvat has been called by someone on this board who has seen him play, Kesler part deux. All of that for one guy who while very good has not been called a franchise center by anyone in the know. You trade Kesler and keep the picks. I simply cannot see doing it any other way.
I agreed. If the Canucks have boatloads of prospects, trading Horvat + 6th overall + another prospect for the 1st overall pick makes sense. Unfortunately, the Canucks do not have much prospects. By trading a "potential" 2nd line centre, another prospect, and a high pick who could also be a "potential" top six forwards for one "potential" first line centre is just not the right move for the Canucks, unless that it is for a guy like Crosby...
Dude, seriously ... it's two assets for one. Not three for one. Read. Carefully. Please. :mex:

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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by SKYO » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:32 am

Canuck-One wrote:I'm just not seeing how 1 guy is going to be better than 3. You guys want to give up the potential of Horvat plus the chance of Nylander AND Vertanin for Reinhart.
Seriously that is a lot to give up for one guy. Nylander is a fantastic talent, with speed and exceptional Hockey IQ. An insanely talented player as described by Red Line reports, with the ability to skate through the other team to put the puck in the net. Vertanin has great hands, wheels and toughness and is one of the best finishers in the draft. Horvat has been called by someone on this board who has seen him play, Kesler part deux. All of that for one guy who while very good has not been called a franchise center by anyone in the know. You trade Kesler and keep the picks. I simply cannot see doing it any other way.
How do you plan on getting both Nylander and Virtanen? Image

Reinhart is younger than Horvat and is already playing better, Nylander will take years to develop and who knows what he'll be like, maybe just slightly better than his pops? Virtanen would likely be the #6 pick for the Canucks (for Benning/TL).

I feel more comfortable with our center position with Sam Reinhart than Horvat/Nylander(and/or as you said VirtanEn).

Plus you gotta take into consideration Cassels who is our sleeper pick he is already a solid two-way center, good on faceoffs and is getting better putting up points, he could be our future 2nd line center without a doubt, having a lot of two-way 2nd line centers for the future doesn't inspire too much hope.

Having a bonafide franchise center in Reinhart for the future is much more conducive to a healthy future for this team....hell I bet Reinhart can even play on this team next season! ... can't say that for the older Horvat at this point.
Last edited by SKYO on Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Jovocop » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:32 am

SKYO wrote:
ClamRussel wrote:Trading Horvat + 6 to move up in a weak draft is one of the stupidest suggestions I've ever heard. I'd rather take my chances w/ Virtanen, Dal Cole or even Nylander PLUS Horvat. I'm all for moving up but not at that cost. Ridiculous.

Enjoy another 43 years of doom and gloom then ol' clam.

If a team doesn't have the luxury to tank season's away to gain multiple 1st overalls, you got to be creative to move up to land top tier talent.
Do the Kings have any 1st overall on the current roster??

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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:36 am

Jovocop wrote:
SKYO wrote:
ClamRussel wrote:Trading Horvat + 6 to move up in a weak draft is one of the stupidest suggestions I've ever heard. I'd rather take my chances w/ Virtanen, Dal Cole or even Nylander PLUS Horvat. I'm all for moving up but not at that cost. Ridiculous.

Enjoy another 43 years of doom and gloom then ol' clam.

If a team doesn't have the luxury to tank season's away to gain multiple 1st overalls, you got to be creative to move up to land top tier talent.
Do the Kings have any 1st overall on the current roster??
No, but they have a 2nd overall who easily could have went 1st overall. It was a two horse race, pick'em in 2008, like what it will be in 2015. :mex:

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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Jovocop » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:38 am

Betamax wrote:
Jovocop wrote:
Canuck-One wrote:I'm just not seeing how 1 guy is going to be better than 3. You guys want to give up the potential of Horvat plus the chance of Nylander AND Vertanin for Reinhart. Seriously that is a lot to give up for one guy. Nylander is a fantastic talent, with speed and exceptional Hockey IQ. An insanely talented player as described by Red Line reports, with the ability to skate through the other team to put the puck in the net. Vertanin has great hands, wheels and toughness and is one of the best finishers in the draft. Horvat has been called by someone on this board who has seen him play, Kesler part deux. All of that for one guy who while very good has not been called a franchise center by anyone in the know. You trade Kesler and keep the picks. I simply cannot see doing it any other way.
I agreed. If the Canucks have boatloads of prospects, trading Horvat + 6th overall + another prospect for the 1st overall pick makes sense. Unfortunately, the Canucks do not have much prospects. By trading a "potential" 2nd line centre, another prospect, and a high pick who could also be a "potential" top six forwards for one "potential" first line centre is just not the right move for the Canucks, unless that it is for a guy like Crosby...
Dude, seriously ... it's two assets for one. Not three for one. Read. Carefully. Please. :mex:
DUDE, it does not matter two for one or three for one. The Canucks need more talented prospects. The cupboard has been bare for a very long time and MG finally filled it with some good prospects. By trading away a 9th overall pick in a deep draft and a 6th overall in a weak draft for a 1st overall in a weak draft just does not make sense unless we are talking about the Panthers...

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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Jovocop » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:40 am

Betamax wrote:
Jovocop wrote:
SKYO wrote:
Enjoy another 43 years of doom and gloom then ol' clam.

If a team doesn't have the luxury to tank season's away to gain multiple 1st overalls, you got to be creative to move up to land top tier talent.
Do the Kings have any 1st overall on the current roster??
No, but they have a 2nd overall who easily could have went 1st overall. It was a two horse race, pick'em in 2008, like what it will be in 2015. :mex:
DUDE, do you understand the word "multiple"??

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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:42 am

SKYO wrote:
Canuck-One wrote:I'm just not seeing how 1 guy is going to be better than 3. You guys want to give up the potential of Horvat plus the chance of Nylander AND Vertanin for Reinhart.
Seriously that is a lot to give up for one guy. Nylander is a fantastic talent, with speed and exceptional Hockey IQ. An insanely talented player as described by Red Line reports, with the ability to skate through the other team to put the puck in the net. Vertanin has great hands, wheels and toughness and is one of the best finishers in the draft. Horvat has been called by someone on this board who has seen him play, Kesler part deux. All of that for one guy who while very good has not been called a franchise center by anyone in the know. You trade Kesler and keep the picks. I simply cannot see doing it any other way.
How do you plan on getting both Nylander and Virtanen? Image

Reinhart is younger than Horvat and is already playing better, Nylander will take years to develop and who knows what he'll be like, maybe just slightly better than his pops? Virtanen would likely be the #6 pick for the Canucks (for Benning/TL).

I feel more comfortable with our center position with Sam Reinhart than Horvat/Nylander(and/or as you said VirtanEn).

Plus you gotta take into consideration Cassels who is our sleeper pick he is already a solid two-way center, good on faceoffs and is getting better putting up points, he could be our future 2nd line center without a doubt, having a lot of two-way 2nd line centers for the future doesn't inspire too much hope.

Having a bonafide franchise center in Reinhart for the future is much more conducive to a healthy future for this team....hell I bet Reinhart can even play on this team next season! ... can't say that for the older Horvat at this point.
If Horvat had a better this season (i.e. was dominant), he would be off the board in a potential trade, IMO.

But let's be honest here, for all you Canucks Fan boys' the spin the Canucks' tried to use when sending him back was that he'd have the prime opportunity to "represent Canada" at the WJHC and play in the Memorial Cup. It turned out to be a fuckin' disaster. All he saw in those two tournaments was losing. Now, that's a use of hyperbole (look it up before you whine back to me) but it isn't that far off.

In fairness, he probably would have experience the same thing if he was with the Canucks, LOL. 8-)

Only forum users here that go to bed with their Canucks themed pajamas on would suggest otherwise.

Tell me I'm wrong. :mex:

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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Hockey Widow » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:44 am

Well I think most, if not everyone, are saying IF you are sure Sam is a true number one centre, you do a deal. But if you don't have that confidence then you don't do a deal. I honestly don't see the Canucks giving up Horvat plus the 6th anyway. I can see them swapping picks and throwing in a Tanev type but that's about it. Even that is a win for Florida.

Remember Benning just came from a team that was kicking itself for not landing another top 4 on defence at the trade deadline. I can see him wanting to run with our top four for that reason.

I can also see Benning and Linden wanting to get back on the right side of trades so I suspect they will be careful but decisive.

And what we have to trade, what we are willing to trade,what our needs will be and what we can afford to trade will highly depend upon the Kesler situation. If we keep Kesler our needs are one thing. If we trade Kesler we have different needs but we also will have different pieces to trade or can afford to trade some prospects we fear losing. So maybe he answer lies in resolving the Kesler situation, one way or the other, before we decide on whether to part with pieces for a shot at Sam.
Last edited by Hockey Widow on Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by SKYO » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:46 am

Jovocop wrote:Do the Kings have any 1st overall on the current roster??
Doughty is pretty close at 2nd overall.

Alot of good rock solid drafting after that.
Kopitar #11, Brown #13
Pearson #30, Voynov #32, Toffoli #47
Muzzin #141, Quick #72

And a lot of schrewd trades with a 5th overall pick in Brayden Schenn and Simmonds (a 2nd round pick) for Richards.
And a former 3rd overall pick in Johnson for Carter.
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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:47 am

Jovocop wrote:DUDE, do you understand the word "multiple"??
BRO, you don't seem to understand the point of this thread. You asked a question. I answered it. And then you ask some bizarre question back to me that was attributed to another poster. WTF? You best check out. :mex:

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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by SKYO » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:51 am

Hockey Widow wrote:Well I think most, if not everyone, are saying IF you are sure Sam is a true number one centre, you do a deal. But if you don't have that confidence then you don't do a deal. I honestly don't see the Canucks giving up Horvat plus the 6th anyway. I can see them swapping picks and throwing in a Tanev type but that's about it. Even that is a win for Florida.

Remember Benning just came from a team that was kicking itself for not landing another top 4 on defence at the trade deadline. I can see him wanting to run with our top four for that reason.

I can also see Benning and Linden wanting to get back on the right side of trades so I suspect they will be careful but decisive.
I think most would agree Sam is true number one, his points per game is outstanding, up there with Tavares, MacKinnon and Stammer at 17 yrs old.

Image

http://canucksarmy.com/2014/6/10/who-sh ... m-reinhart
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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Betamax » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:06 am

SKYO wrote:
Hockey Widow wrote:Well I think most, if not everyone, are saying IF you are sure Sam is a true number one centre, you do a deal. But if you don't have that confidence then you don't do a deal. I honestly don't see the Canucks giving up Horvat plus the 6th anyway. I can see them swapping picks and throwing in a Tanev type but that's about it. Even that is a win for Florida.

Remember Benning just came from a team that was kicking itself for not landing another top 4 on defence at the trade deadline. I can see him wanting to run with our top four for that reason.

I can also see Benning and Linden wanting to get back on the right side of trades so I suspect they will be careful but decisive.
I think most would agree Sam is true number one, his points per game is outstanding, up there with Tavares, MacKinnon and Stammer at 17 yrs old.

Image

http://canucksarmy.com/2014/6/10/who-sh ... m-reinhart
duh, one outlier from that group is Sam Gagner who is in the top 3 who has had a decent NHL career but not exactly a No. 1 franchise C. His size or lack there of may play a big part on why it hasn't translated to the NHL level. :mex:

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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Boston Canucker » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:07 am

The Brown Knight wrote:For me, it boils down to this:

Get the best player available possible, and build your future core around the best player available.

I think in this instance, whether it's Nylander, Horvat, Virtanen, etc., Sam Reinhart is the clear cut best player.

That's not to say that the other draft picks won't be great players themselves, but draft picks always come with risk. Ditto for Reinhart. However - I think Reinhart gives the Canucks the BEST shot of finding a suitable heir apparent to Henrik when Henrik retires. Franchise centers do not grow on trees. Reinhart has the best chance out of all the prospects to become a franchise center.

I love Bo Horvat, but I do not think the odds are very high of him becoming a franchise calibre center. At best, he will very likely be on the level of a Kesler/Mike Richards/Patrice Bergeron (i.e. a damn good player, but not a franchise level center that you build your team around).

Get Reinhart.


p.s.___________________Having said that, I do agree with the notion that "dangling" guys like Garrison and Schroeder to Tallon is laughable, and won't pique Tallon's interest at all.
If Horvat's upside is a Kesler/Bergeron comparison, then you absolutely keep him. I'd suggest that Bergeron is THE most valuable forward on the Bruins. I think they'd give up anyone else before him, if they had to. YEs, I think the hope for Horvat is that he is a future Kesler or Bergeron, and if so, he's very much someone you keep. there are many ways to skin a cat, if Tallon starts the negotiations with Horvat that is his first play, it's the start of the negotiations, not the end. There are other ways to do it. As I said, the #6 and #10 pick is nothing to sneeze at for Tallon.

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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by SKYO » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:37 am

Boston Canucker wrote:
The Brown Knight wrote:For me, it boils down to this:
Get the best player available possible, and build your future core around the best player available.
Get Reinhart.
If Horvat's upside is a Kesler/Bergeron comparison, then you absolutely keep him. I'd suggest that Bergeron is THE most valuable forward on the Bruins. I think they'd give up anyone else before him, if they had to. YEs, I think the hope for Horvat is that he is a future Kesler or Bergeron, and if so, he's very much someone you keep. there are many ways to skin a cat, if Tallon starts the negotiations with Horvat that is his first play, it's the start of the negotiations, not the end. There are other ways to do it. As I said, the #6 and #10 pick is nothing to sneeze at for Tallon.
They key with all round two way centers like Bergeron/Kesler/M Richards is they got a bonafide point producing machine center ahead of them, do we have any centers like that for the foreseeable future?

Cassels is already a two-way center who can play like Horvat, just not as many points.

Hank has only a few good years left, we need a replacement for him asap.
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Re: If it took Horvat + 6th to acquire 2014 1st pick, would

Post by Diehard1 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:10 am

Somebody asked if a poster who has watched a lot of Horvat can chime in - I watched 20+ games this season and I voted no to trading him plus #6 for the #1. Doesn't make sense to me to trade your two best prospects (Horvat + whoever is chosen at 6) for 1 player even if he turns into an 80 point center.

To me, Horvat will be a 35-40 point 3rd line C as soon as next year and will progress from that. If he tops out as a 50 point great defensive center and whoever is picked at #6 is a 50-60 point winger (thinking Ritchie, Virtanen, Ehlers, Nylander) I think those two combined are worth more than one 80 point guy.

Now, if the trade is #6 plus a roster player not named Sedin or Kesler then I think about it hard, it makes sense to get the top pick and pick Reinhart or Bennett if it doesn't cost you 2 major future pieces. One future piece for one future piece makes sense given where this team is. I'm also assuming the Kesler trade will bring back at least one future piece as well, something this team needs badly.

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