2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby The Brown Knight » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:58 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
Brian Campbell's been averaging 45 point seasons since leaving the Hawks, pretty comparable production to Duncan Keith (averaging 49 pt seasons) over the past 3 seasons, actually. Byfuglien hasn't been under 50 points (lockout adjusted) since leaving the Hawks. Not bad, no? Must be nice to be able to piss away talent like that and not miss a beat... Do you think guys from the 2013 Hawks team that have since moved on (Frolik, Stalberg...) are in that same category?


The thing with Campbell, is that he brings almost nothing else to the table other than offense. Not only that, but he comes with an extremely heavy cap hit (not that this has anything to do with our debate, but I thought I'd mention). I don't think Campbell is regarded as being one of the best defensemen in the league, and I also suspect that if the Panthers had a chance to move Campbell (given his cap hit), they would. I don't think one can call Campbell a "franchise defenseman" like you can with Keith. Keith brings far more to the table.

Byfuglien also has some very significant holes in his game. There is a reason why he didn't make Team USA this year. Byfuglien is still a good player, but he hasn't really been the same since the 2010 playoffs. Again - like Campbell, I wouldn't consider him to be a "franchise guy" despite being a pretty good player.

You're right about Frolik and Stalberg.

I don't know. It's subjectivity on my part, but I wasn't overly impressed with that 2010 Chicago team. They were great no doubt, but I saw some holes and chinks in the armour. I think the 2013 Hawks were better as a whole, and the Kings of this year defeated what was essentially that 2013 Hawks team (and this 2014 Kings team is essentially the same team that won it in 2012 and almost no team in recent history has dominated a playoff like those 2012 Kings).
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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby Rumsfeld » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:24 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:
The Brown Knight wrote:Are you talking about Brian Campbell? I would hardly call him a franchise cornerstone player, but I haven't been following him much. Byfuglien became gay and fat upon arriving in Winnipeg (still a good player, but hardly a cornerstone franchise). You're right about Andrew Ladd however. Bolland is a 3rd line center on a good team, and a borderline 2nd line center on most teams. I do agree though - there will be some sucker of a team that will pay Bolland between 4-5 million per year.


Brian Campbell's been averaging 45 point seasons since leaving the Hawks, pretty comparable production to Duncan Keith (averaging 49 pt seasons) over the past 3 seasons, actually. Byfuglien hasn't been under 50 points (lockout adjusted) since leaving the Hawks. Not bad, no? Must be nice to be able to piss away talent like that and not miss a beat... Do you think guys from the 2013 Hawks team that have since moved on (Frolik, Stalberg...) are in that same category?


Yup. The 2010 Blackhawks were by far the best post-lockout team yet on paper... and I'd say on the ice as well.

The only advantage the 2013 squad had on them was that Toews and Kane were a few years older and a few years better. The third and fourth lines were not comparable at all.
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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby The Brown Knight » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:51 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Yup. The 2010 Blackhawks were by far the best post-lockout team yet on paper... and I'd say on the ice as well.

The only advantage the 2013 squad had on them was that Toews and Kane were a few years older and a few years better. The third and fourth lines were not comparable at all.


But how do you explain the Hawks' utter dominance of the 2013 regular season? They were on pace for over 130+ points.

The 2010 Hawks team was a very talented team no doubt, but I think they would've been hard pressed to defeat both Boston teams (2011 an 2013), along with the Kings teams of 2012 and 2014. I think both of those LA and Boston teams would have stifled those free style Hawk teams big time. I think this would've done one or two of three things:

1) Force the Hawks to more risks/pinches to counter the stifling opposing D.........which would have then exposed a very mediocre Anti Niemmi.

2) Force the Hawks to go against their natural run-and-gun style at the time which would play right into the hands of teams like LA and Boston.

3) Hot-heads such as Burrish, Eager, etc., would have been suckered into taking more dumb penalties as a result of being frustrated.

Offensively, that 2010 Hawks team was bloody dangerous, and they had a great mix of skill, speed, and size, but there were some chinks in the armour there defensively. You look at some of those games against the Flyers and Canucks, and you'll notice that both teams were successful in having some games where they scored 4+ goals in 2-3 of those games.

It's all a moot point though. Who knows what the fuck would have happened. Just my guess though. I think these current verisons of Chicago (2013-2014) and LA (2012-2014) are a class above the rest of the league, and do deserve comparisons to those Avs/Wings teams from 2001-2002.
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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby Rumsfeld » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:07 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:
Rumsfeld wrote:Yup. The 2010 Blackhawks were by far the best post-lockout team yet on paper... and I'd say on the ice as well.

The only advantage the 2013 squad had on them was that Toews and Kane were a few years older and a few years better. The third and fourth lines were not comparable at all.


But how do you explain the Hawks' utter dominance of the 2013 regular season? They were on pace for over 130+ points.


Shortened season. Lots of teams go on amazing streaks for 40-50 games and can't continue that pace for 82 games.

Island Nuck already explained why they were a much deeper team and a better team statistically in the playoffs than the ones you have such a brown boner for. :D

If you're really looking for a Kings team to splooge all over you should look no further than their 2012 squad, which had the best playoff record, IIRC, in recent times.
Last edited by Rumsfeld on Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby The Brown Knight » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:10 pm

Rumsfeld wrote:Island Nuck already explained why they were a much deeper team and a better team statistically in the playoffs than the ones you have such a brown boner for. :D


LOL.

No Brown Hindu boners for any of those teams.

Dislike all of them equally. :P

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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby Skintag Necklace » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:24 am

The Brown Knight wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:
Brian Campbell's been averaging 45 point seasons since leaving the Hawks, pretty comparable production to Duncan Keith (averaging 49 pt seasons) over the past 3 seasons, actually. Byfuglien hasn't been under 50 points (lockout adjusted) since leaving the Hawks. Not bad, no? Must be nice to be able to piss away talent like that and not miss a beat... Do you think guys from the 2013 Hawks team that have since moved on (Frolik, Stalberg...) are in that same category?


The thing with Campbell, is that he brings almost nothing else to the table other than offense. Not only that, but he comes with an extremely heavy cap hit (not that this has anything to do with our debate, but I thought I'd mention). I don't think Campbell is regarded as being one of the best defensemen in the league, and I also suspect that if the Panthers had a chance to move Campbell (given his cap hit), they would. I don't think one can call Campbell a "franchise defenseman" like you can with Keith. Keith brings far more to the table.

Byfuglien also has some very significant holes in his game. There is a reason why he didn't make Team USA this year. Byfuglien is still a good player, but he hasn't really been the same since the 2010 playoffs. Again - like Campbell, I wouldn't consider him to be a "franchise guy" despite being a pretty good player.

You're right about Frolik and Stalberg.

I don't know. It's subjectivity on my part, but I wasn't overly impressed with that 2010 Chicago team. They were great no doubt, but I saw some holes and chinks in the armour. I think the 2013 Hawks were better as a whole, and the Kings of this year defeated what was essentially that 2013 Hawks team (and this 2014 Kings team is essentially the same team that won it in 2012 and almost no team in recent history has dominated a playoff like those 2012 Kings).



You lose any credibility not recognizing what is obvious to a fan with even passing knowledge of NHL hockey. The Hawks 2009-10 roster is far and away the best team since the 04 lockout. It may be the best team in the last 15 years however the 01 Avs and the 02 Wings would be in that conversation as well.
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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby Skintag Necklace » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:28 am

okcanuck wrote:We didn't lose Willie we chose to get rid of him.His cap hit wasn't that bad at the time,considering how the plugs Gillis brought in to replace him have performed. No, Gillis completely blew it with Willie

Gillis and his so-called loyalty to his players was a lie. Here was a BC player , a big and tough defence man, and a great teammate who was discarded unceremoniously. We sure could have used him the last 3 years.


He wasn't even cleared to play until the end of summer . Was Mike Gillis just supposed to wait around and see how it went before aquiring another d man or two to plug the holes . Dan Hamhuis is a better player regardless. Get off the cheap whiskey from the Westbank reserve and get back to reality.
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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby Cornuck » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:46 am

Plus he was looking for 2 or more years coming off a bad concussion. Not worth the risk at the time.

I thought he looked a lot better in the Final this year than when he played for us.
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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby The Brown Knight » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:22 am

Skintag Necklace wrote:
You lose any credibility not recognizing what is obvious to a fan with even passing knowledge of NHL hockey. The Hawks 2009-10 roster is far and away the best team since the 04 lockout. It may be the best team in the last 15 years however the 01 Avs and the 02 Wings would be in that conversation as well.


Meh.

I don't think it's worth too much time pondering over. I also referenced the 2001 Avs and 2002 Wings and so voila, I gain back atleast 40% of my credibility Johnny on the spot. :P

That 2010 Hawks that won the Cup were quite similar to the 2009 Hawks team, and that 2009 Hawks team got absolutely shit-canned by the Wings in 5 games that year (and the Wings of 2009 were a shell of their 2008 team). So, perhaps that 2008 Red Wings team consisting of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc., deserve some love as well.

That Chicago 2010 team had a lot of style, "coolness", and talent, which I think made them a loveable team by fans in the NHL. They certainly were a talented team, without question. However - during those 2 seasons of 2009 and 2010, the Hawks never really faced a truly elite team. The ONE time they did, was against the Wings in 2009, and they got shit canned in 5.

In 2010 - they played against a Nashville team that had a pop-gun offense if I recall correctly, followed by very mediocre Vancouver and San Jose teams that possessed neither a top elite defensive pairing nor a top 3 elite goalie in the league. Both Vancouver and San Jose's psychological issues come playoff time have been well documented.

In the finals, the Hawks played against a Flyers team that was kind of there by fluke (they almost got completely rag dolled by Boston until Boston's arrogance as a team set in which allowed Philly to win 4 straight). The Flyers had Pronger, but they didn't have an elite goalie and had a lot of question marks as a team.

Again - the only real "good" team that the Hawks played between 2009 and 2010 in the playoffs, was a slightly watered down version of the 2008 Cup winning Wings team and they got bitch-slapped in 5 games. Granted -Hawks were one year more mature in 2010 than 2009, but I just don't think that team as a whole was "all that."

Nashville, Vancouver, and Philadelphia all had multiple games against the Hawks in those playoffs where they scored tons of goals. Chicago's offense however, kept them afloat. Against more modern teams like LA, Boston, and the current Chicago Blackhawks, I don't think this would've been the case.
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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:38 pm

Doubling down eh? Bad choice...

The Brown Knight wrote:That 2010 Hawks that won the Cup were quite similar to the 2009 Hawks team, and that 2009 Hawks team got absolutely shit-canned by the Wings in 5 games that year (and the Wings of 2009 were a shell of their 2008 team). So, perhaps that 2008 Red Wings team consisting of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc., deserve some love as well.


You mean the 2009 Hawks team that featured Marty Havlat as its leading scorer? That had 20-year olds Kane and Toews taking them to the conference finals and losing to the defending cup champs and the highest scoring team in the league that finished 3rd overall? A team that had 4 30-goal scorers? Yeah... 3 fewer regular season points and a 1-goal game-7 loss in the cup finals sure indicates those Wings were a "shell" of their former selves. Do you believe half the shit you post?

I'll make this simple and list the players who didn't play on both 2010 and 2013 Cup teams, and you tell me which group of guys you'd rather have:

(2013) Saad, Stalberg, Leddy, Shaw, Kruger, Rozsival, Frolik, Handzus, Hayes, Carcillo, Morin, Meyers, Brookbank, Smith, Bollig, Crawford and Emery

OR

(2010) Byfuglien, Versteeg, Brouwer, Kopecky, Ladd, Sopel, Campbell, Eager, Madden, Boynton, Burish, Fraser, Hendry, Niemi and Huet.

Take your pick, I know which team I'd choose and it's not even close.
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Re: 2014 Stanley Cup Playoffs

Postby The Brown Knight » Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:40 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:You mean the 2009 Hawks team that featured Marty Havlat as its leading scorer? That had 20-year olds Kane and Toews taking them to the conference finals and losing to the defending cup champs and the highest scoring team in the league that finished 3rd overall? A team that had 4 30-goal scorers? Yeah... 3 fewer regular season points and a 1-goal game-7 loss in the cup finals sure indicates those Wings were a "shell" of their former selves. Do you believe half the shit you post?


Fair enough Isle Nuck. I wasn't aware that the Wings of 09' were only three points shy of the 08' performance and so I stand corrected here. Having said that, is it really necessary to get your estrogen levels up so much? (I.e. "Do you believe half the shit you post, lol").

I'll make this simple and list the players who didn't play on both 2010 and 2013 Cup teams, and you tell me which group of guys you'd rather have:

(2013) Saad, Stalberg, Leddy, Shaw, Kruger, Rozsival, Frolik, Handzus, Hayes, Carcillo, Morin, Meyers, Brookbank, Smith, Bollig, Crawford and Emery

OR

(2010) Byfuglien, Versteeg, Brouwer, Kopecky, Ladd, Sopel, Campbell, Eager, Madden, Boynton, Burish, Fraser, Hendry, Niemi and Huet.

Take your pick, I know which team I'd choose and it's not even close.


It's not just about individual players though. It's about the team, style of play, leadership, maturity, and as it relates to the playoffs, commitment to team defense.

2010 Chicago was a terrific team without question, but they gave up a LOT of goals in many of the games against what was essentially, very mediocre competiton (relatively speaking) against Nashville, Vancouver, or the Flyers in the finals ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Stanley_Cup_playoffs). If we're being completely honest, those Predator, Canuck, Shark, and Flyers teams weren't anywhere near as good as some of the teams that the 2013 and 2014 Hawk teams had to face (I.e. Boston, LA, St.Louis).

If that 2010 Chicago team played against a defensive stalwart like the 2011/2013 Bruins or the 2012/2014 Kings, do you think their offense would have been as prolific? I don't. And as my link shows, Chicago had some noticeable holes and question marks when it came to their defensive play during those playoffs.........against teams that weren't exactly world beaters. Teams like Boston 11/13 and LA 12/14 would've neutralized Chicago's high octane offense, which would have done one or some of the following:

1) Get certain Hawk players frustrated resulting in taking dumb penalties (I.e. Eager, Burrish, Byfuglien)
2) Force Chicago to tighten up and play a style that they weren't really used to playing.......OR
3) Force Chicago to take more chances offensively, which would further expose Niemi for being the mediocre goalie that he truly was, and very likely always will be.

We all saw what Boston did to Pittsburgh in the 2013 Eastern Conference finals (I.e. Nullify their ridiculously high octane offense........force the Pens to play a style they weren't at all comfortable with.........exposed the Pens' mediocre team defensive play and goaltending).

You talk about individual players on the 2010 and 2013 team, but one key difference is Niemi and Crawford. Niemi is a very average goalie in my opinion, whereas Crawford, while not Top 3, has become one of the best goalies in the league.

I mean really. If it was all about assessing individual players without taking into consideration other important factors such as the style of play of a team, then perhaps by your logic, the Pittsburgh Penguins should be the best team in the league at current.
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