Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

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dbr
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

Post by dbr »

ClamRussel wrote:The one season that landed him this contract was a good first half in Florida. From what I've seen on the ice I don't find it a reasonable deal at $4.6M cap hit.
It was two seasons, unless you believe that the Canucks looked at his 16 G total in 2011-12 and thought they were getting that player (in direct contradiction to conventional wisdom at the time).
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vic
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

Post by vic »

Mëds wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:If Garrison was Swedish and not a 'local boy' you'd all be driving him to the airport along with Edler.

I'd be ecstatic to see him gone as well. A once promising signing not looking so promising now.
Garrison's value is on the PP and responsible, simple, play in his own end.

The Canucks PP doesn't really work for Garrison because they don't move the puck quickly enough. The guy gets a one-timer off faster than most people I've seen, and with only half a windup it's a bomb that few can match.....he's also good at letting it go without the pass being absolutely perfect, something none of our other defensemen can do.

In Florida he was on a shitty team and put up good numbers. The Canucks were coming off of another President's Trophy and had a good PP that had shown a drop in production with the loss of Ehrhoff and now Salo. Garrison should have been a good fit, but the book on the Canucks was out and Garrison was rendered useless because of the other players on the Canucks PP slowing things down, and 2 of our best forwards being unwilling to shoot.

Change up the PP and everyone will be singing Garrison's praises again as he bombs away for 15+ goals and 35 points.
A 35 point Garrison would be great, but 33 points this past season (which matched his career best on a "shitty" Florida team) puts him into the buy out discussion.

The Canucks were a shitty team this season too.
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Hockey Widow
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

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Let's remember that Booth was looking like the player we thought we were getting until his knee injury. Then he misses almost a full year of playing and trying time due the ankle injury.

It is a bit brutal to say he has coasted for two years. He has not had the production we need but he suffered two pretty significant injuries both of which needed recovery time. He was unable to train last off season and it took him half a year this season to just begin it find his form again.

I have no idea what he will be like next year but it is really unfair to say he was garbage or coasting.

If we need the cap space buy him out. If we trade pieces do the core why not keep him for the final year. I won't be broken hearted either way. What is ailing the Canucks is bigger that David fucking Booth.
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ClamRussel
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

Post by ClamRussel »

dbr wrote:
ClamRussel wrote:The one season that landed him this contract was a good first half in Florida. From what I've seen on the ice I don't find it a reasonable deal at $4.6M cap hit.
It was two seasons, unless you believe that the Canucks looked at his 16 G total in 2011-12 and thought they were getting that player (in direct contradiction to conventional wisdom at the time).
I think that's exactly what happened. They thought they were getting a younger better Salo and let him go. You don't pay that kind of money to a guy w/ a career best 18pts, it was the next year & those 16 goals that landed the big ticket.
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

Post by ClamRussel »

Island Nucklehead wrote:
ClamRussel wrote: I'm not against Garrison, I just think he'll be in the conversation when topic of buyout comes up (as will Booth & Burrows). Mostly because that cap hit lasts for 4 more years, I know I'd expect more for the $6.5M he was paid. Booth might dodge the bullet because he's only got one year remaining. It's entirely possible no one gets bought out in the end.

Everyone will & should be under scrutiny.

In hindsight, considering the return we got, and the loss of Schneider, should the buyout have been used on Lu?
Only 15 players have been bought out using the compliance buyout. Montador, Olesz, Colaiacovo, Gilbert, Gomez, Kaberle, Hedberg, DiPietro, Redden, Briere, Bryzgalov, Lecavalier, Komisarek, Grabovski, and Schultz. I don't know that I would lump Garrison into that category of player having a ridiculous contract, or being a serious under performer. Booth certainly fits that mould, Burrows was looking like he could also, but seemed to turn it around near the end.

I think Doc has pointed out how the Luongo contract could come back to bite us in the future, so maybe it should have been used on him. Conversely, if he really thought his "contract sucks" maybe there should have been greater exploration into possibly voiding it.

I still feel Booth should be the guy bought out. It doesn't bode well for the team identity that you should be able to coast through several seasons of shitty play, and dodge a buyout because you "only have one year left" or played marginally better over 20 games where the team was still losing. If we're serious about holding people accountable, Booth should go because he's been garbage for the majority of his time here and he has absolutely no trade value.

If Booth is bought out, the Canucks have about $15M to spend on 4 roster players heading into next season. From what I can tell, Markstrom is still waiver-exempt, so the Canucks can bring in a veteran goalie (Hiller, Halak) with Booth's money, and open roster spots for one or more rookies coming into the lineup. You could also replace Booth's production, and hope for better production/chemistry with a guy like Nikolai Kulimen for half the price as a UFA, I imagine.
Garrison doesn't have a ridiculous contract, it's just not a very good one. He's clearly overpaid. DiPietro's was ridiculous. Is Yashin's still on New York's books?

I think that's unfair criticism of Booth but I understand the sentiment. The guy was a disaster for most of the season. However, I truly believe what we saw from him at the end is the real Booth. Injuries have plagued him and I think he earned a second chance. He was easily one if our top wingers at the end. That kind of positive effort has to be rewarded, he worked his ass off.

Not so sure about Markstrom being waiver-exempt. What's the rule on that?
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SKYO
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

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Buy out Booth - just cause he played half decent for a handful of games when he knew he was going to be bought out doesn't mean we should keep him, use that cap space to sign MOuLSON Canadian, injury or not we need a winger whose more prolific in scoring and can play in our top 6, not a $4.25M per for a player who only plays well with our 3rd liners in Richardson - Kassian.

Just remember Booth hasn't showed much of any chemistry with the Sedins or Ryan Kesler, so he's pretty much stuck on the 3rd.

Rather pay a mill or two more for someone whose proven to be more productive.
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

Post by Island Nucklehead »

ClamRussel wrote: Garrison doesn't have a ridiculous contract, it's just not a very good one. He's clearly overpaid. DiPietro's was ridiculous. Is Yashin's still on New York's books?
Yep. Yashin counts for $2M against their cap until after next season. Hasn't played an NHL game since 06-07.
Injuries have plagued him and I think he earned a second chance. He was easily one if our top wingers at the end. That kind of positive effort has to be rewarded, he worked his ass off.
I guess it depends on what Linden's short-term plan is for the franchise. We might not have to be a cap team next year if we plan on bringing the kids and their ELC's into the lineup. If we are a cap team again, I'm not sure we can afford a $4.25M reward for a third line guy.

The other thing I was musing about re: Buyouts and Luongo is the idea of buying out our retained salary portion. I wonder if the league would do that, it would cost us chump change and give us that $800K to use before 2022.
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

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I would find it improbable that we could buy out a portion of a contract. When buying out a contract you are only paying a portion, not the full amount owing, over a specific number of years. The player, who will not get his full contract instead gets to be FA and sign where he chooses or is able to. To allow us to buy out a portion of the $800,000 deprives Luongo of money and does not allow him FA status. Can't see how it would work.

It would also not relieve us of any future cap recapture since he would still be playing under the original contract.
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

Post by ClamRussel »

Are the Devils hit w/ cap recapture for Kovalchuk retiring? ...thats obviously why Pronger hasn't officially retired yet.

If the Canucks had half a brain they would have made that a "condition" of trading Lu back to Florida. The only place he wanted to go. He never retires, and perhaps someday he just gets injured and cannot even ride a bicycle w/o discomfort.

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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

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The only place he wanted to go. He never retires, and perhaps someday he just gets injured and cannot even ride a bicycle w/o discomfort.
As I suggested earlier, that penalty will likely never be inforced and will eventually be removed by the league...

And even if its not, because the cap is going to be much higher then than it is now there will always be financial pressure on the have not teams to reach the cap floor...

So a team like Florida, who had the lowest payroll in the league this year, will welcome a contract on their books which has a $4.5 cap hit with only $1 million in actual dollars paid to help them reach the floor...

I don't get the cap recapture concerns, it aint worth losing sleep over...

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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

Post by ClamRussel »

No ones losing sleep over that rikster, just a topic of conversation.

The mind boggling aspect of the cap recapture is that it ever saw the light of day. Its absurd and unfair to punish teams retroactively for doing something the league approved of. We all know who had Gary's ear during the drafting of this and whats behind it.
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

Post by ukcanuck »

If luongo had come through with the game of his life in 2011 and pitched a shut out in game seven.
We would not be having this conversation. There would be a statue of Gillis on griffiths way, and we would be marvelling at the guts it took to draft such an amazing contract...

Funny how life is ...
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

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ClamRussel wrote:No ones losing sleep over that rikster, just a topic of conversation.

The mind boggling aspect of the cap recapture is that it ever saw the light of day. Its absurd and unfair to punish teams retroactively for doing something the league approved of. We all know who had Gary's ear during the drafting of this and whats behind it.
Yeah it's hard to believe they would allow such a proposal to succeed, but at this point we have to assume it might bite us in the ass to the tune of a first line player. Apparently, since the Devils reaped $12M in benefits from Kovalchuk's deal, spread over the life of the remaining years, it works out to like $250K per season. Chump change. Likewise, I imagine if Luongo retired tomorrow and resigned after a season off, the Canucks would have less than their current 800K hit. Why he didn't do that when he thought his "contract sucked" is beyond me.... lol guaranteed $$$$$$ buys a lot of Italian cuisine.

Considering teams like the Hawks (Hossa... $4.25M, Keith $3.8M), Minny (Suter+Parise @ $6+M), Detroit (Zetterberg @ $5M, Franzen @$3M) and Vancouver are all in the same boat, I'm sure the league finds a way to "punish" these contracts without actually punishing the teams.
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

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What I also find mind boggling is they actually had one aspect they grandfathered in. If a player, like Nash, was traded before the old CBA expired then they are not subject to the cap recapture clause. Why they grandfathered that one type of scenario smacks of favouritism.

As for Pronger, there is very good reason for him not to retire. If he does so he forfeits his salary. While on LTIR he gets paid.

One of the questions Luongo was asked at his Florida presser was about his contract and if he intended to play until it expired. His answer was something along the lines of there being a much better chance of that happening today (the day of the presser) than there was yesterday. He may feel a sense of loyalty/obligation to Florida. Let's hope.
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Re: Missing the Playoffs (and its ramifications)

Post by Island Nucklehead »

Hockey Widow wrote: As for Pronger, there is very good reason for him not to retire. If he does so he forfeits his salary. While on LTIR he gets paid.
The Pronger deal is one of the most ridiculous things in professional sports. The man himself admits he'll never play again, yet refuses to "officially" retire. If I was Shea Weber I'd be looking for a concussion to milk...
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