The Rebuild

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SKYO
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by SKYO » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:04 pm

mathonwy wrote:What happens if the Sedins get hurt again?

You've brought up all of our best prospects already.

What happens if the Sedins make it through the regular season ok but we get matched up against the Blue's in the first round.

We don't have the durability on this team to make another long cup run. IE. The Sedins aren't durable enough to make a long cup run as our top line.

Our defense isn't durable enough either. Skilled players yes. But you can't exactly classify anyone other than Jason Garrison as a "rock". We were all saying that Tanev was going to get hurt one of these days considering how much punishment he takes from forecheckers and lo and behold, he gets injured this season.

I think the "win now" mentality is a pipe dream unfortunately.
It's a roll of the dice for sure, but why not? we wouldn't be giving up any young assets in my aforementioned moves, no sacrifice of the future, just utilizing our veteran talent while they are here and under contract.
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by SKYO » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:09 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Agree with buddy from the Astoria. Get off the toluoene for fuck sakes. Why bring in Vanek ?? This team is still a first round and out with him . Why the fuck do we want to bandaid everything to become a 90 - 95 point team ? You can just as easily flip a few pieces and pick up 70- 80 points and stay in the Eichel/McJesus/Barzal sweepstakes, all the while developing kids , stockpiling prospects and playing a decent brand of hockey.

The team doesn't need a total tear down but they DO need to start rennovating. And if Eye Bags can't do it bring in someone who doesn't give a fuck about all the unnecessary NTC that were gifted out. I would like to see Philly go on a run so maybe Homer keeps his gig a bit longer and Hextall becomes available for a GM job.
Because we have veteran talent with a bunch of NTC's so instead of trying to brute force players out, I say work with what we got and give it a go for another couple years, even bringing in a few young guns in the process.

I'm all for renovating, but really are we going to get anything of value for Edler? his value is at an all time low, even Kesler isn't getting much in return if that Sutter+1st+2nd is of any indication of what GM's are offering for him.

Burrows will get squat in return, I say most of our players hold more value to this team right now than dealing em.

It's just a bad year overall, just hope for health next season, make a couple moves, sign a couple UFA's and bring in coupla rookies, maybe a new coach and GM, should be an interesting offseason for sure.
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Hockey Widow » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:11 pm

So much depends on believing that this season is an anomaly for so many, an off season and not an indication of rapidly declining skill/ability/production.

If they can all bounce back and get to there average production years then tinkering is fine. But if you believe this season is not just an anomaly for everyone, some yes, but others a sign of their deteriorating play, then you need to more than just add a few young pieces.

I tend to believe it is somewhere in between. I think the twins will bounce back to their career averages and Burrows will, if healthy, contribute again. Not so sure if a elder will will bounce back. Kesler I think we have seen the best of him points wise.

I just want to go into next season with a legit top six. Not asking much. Don't really care how MG does it either. Just get it done. We have more than enough to create a very good bottom six. Just fix the top six.
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by ukcanuck » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:17 am

I think they should look at this as a transition year
Sedins and Kesler are consensus obvious keepers (blob notwithstanding)
However, they are in their 30's and their prime days are numbered.

The youth movement is in its early 20's and few years from their prime.

There is a an age gap that needs to be filled in as well

So if we can trade or sign 2 UFAs who are top six material and in the mid 20's then I think a rebound is not out of question.

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Re: The Rebuild

Post by mathonwy » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:37 am

Hockey Widow wrote:So much depends on believing that this season is an anomaly for so many, an off season and not an indication of rapidly declining skill/ability/production.

If they can all bounce back and get to there average production years then tinkering is fine. But if you believe this season is not just an anomaly for everyone, some yes, but others a sign of their deteriorating play, then you need to more than just add a few young pieces.
This is absolutely the crux of the situation that is facing the Canucks.

If history is any indication, the current edition of the Canucks go as the Sedins go. With our current personnel, if the Sedins go on an extended slump, we DO NOT have the fire power to be able to adequately compensate for the reduced production.

This year is the first year where the Sedins have suffered some catastrophic injuries. Hank's injuries we know about (fucking Hanzal). Dank's "injuries" are speculative AT BEST. The 2014 Dank is a shadow of the 2011 Dank. To his credit, Dank has been playing much better hockey lately, however, for the majority of the 2014 season, Dank has SUCKED BALLS. Dank has made a career out of being in the right place at the right time combined with a decent shot. This year, Dank has NEVER been in the right place and his shot is more like a push. He's pushing the puck toward the opposing goaltender as opposed to snapping it (like he usually does). If you push the puck, you don't score. Simple as that.


We all saw in the 2011 SC playoffs that the way to neutralize the Sedins is to pound the living fuck out of them. They are slight guys and showed that they are physically incapable of taking the extended punishment necessary to win a SC. So 4 years later, has anything changed? If anything, things have gotten worse. They've gotten older, their production is dropping and they're getting injured.

Don't get me wrong. I love the Sedin brothers. They've given everything they have to the city of Vancouver and we see this season that Hank is willing to endure some serious amounts of pain of the team. I'm just of the opinion that I don't think they have another level. I don't think they can reinvent themselves without some strong external influence.

I don't see that strong external influence coming anytime soon which is why I don't care to roll the dice at this point of time. There is absolutely no guarantee that a line of Cammalleri, Kesler, Vanek will accomplish anything. Let's start the retool / rebuild right and I feel that means trading Kesler while his trade value is at its highest.

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Re: The Rebuild

Post by ukcanuck » Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:50 am

So sitting here in sunny Dubai and surfing cap geek for UFA's

looks pretty much a dog's breakfast of grizzly old bastards...

If I'm GM for a day on my shopping list is an offensive Defenceman and a playmaking winger both under thirty and both worth the pay raise its going to take to out bid other teams...

Unfortunately not much out there after Vanek, Moulson, and J Jokinen

Stastney or Callahan are UFA and very interesting but I cant see them staying that way past July 1st... however, if either ever did come on the market...

looking at defencemen however, raises an interesting thought...

The penguins have something like 55 million in contracts signed for next year and about 15 million to spend on 16 UFA and RFA's...

Im wondering if they would ripe for the picking?

Matt Niskanen has the best points total of this years UFAs at 10g 32a 42p
He is the right age and and is probably due a big raise.

Jussi Jokinen is a play making winger who might jump at a second line spot for a raise

Then there is the RFA Brandon Sutter...

Just some idle thoughts...

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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Meds » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:56 am

ukcanuck wrote:So sitting here in sunny Dubai and surfing cap geek for UFA's

looks pretty much a dog's breakfast of grizzly old bastards...

If I'm GM for a day on my shopping list is an offensive Defenceman and a playmaking winger both under thirty and both worth the pay raise its going to take to out bid other teams...

Unfortunately not much out there after Vanek, Moulson, and J Jokinen
Scared me there for a split second.....all I saw was Jokinen and I really started to panic. Thought maybe the Dubai heat was getting to you. :P
Stastny or Callahan are UFA and very interesting but I cant see them staying that way past July 1st... however, if either ever did come on the market...
A big pass on Callahan thanks.....and of the two of those guys I think he's the least likely to be UFA come July. I base that opinion on what Tampa gave up to get him. I would be fine with Stastny though.....move Kesler to the wing.
looking at defencemen however, raises an interesting thought...

The penguins have something like 55 million in contracts signed for next year and about 15 million to spend on 16 UFA and RFA's...

Im wondering if they would ripe for the picking?

Matt Niskanen has the best points total of this years UFAs at 10g 32a 42p
He is the right age and and is probably due a big raise.
I ended up with Niskanen in my pool, and he's been a big surprise. My only hesitation with him is that I wonder how inflated his numbers have become because he's getting a lot of PP time with the Penguin's top players.

Then there is the RFA Brandon Sutter...

Just some idle thoughts...
I don't know why we would want Sutter. Even if we move Kesler, Sutter isn't second line material.

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Re: The Rebuild

Post by SKYO » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:57 am

mr perfect wrote:
RoyalDude wrote:I like Tony Gallaghers suggestions - Matt Moulson, Cammelleri and Vanek. Tony says any one of those 3 to play with Kesler will get us back to respectability.
The three FA's you mentioned - Are you serious? How well did these guys play on the teams they were first liners on? To get one of these thirty something FA's for an already full of thirty something players team, you're looking to spend $6.5 mil per for the next four years on players whose production will be sliding over that period of time. For that you might as well not buy out Booth and extend him. The Canucks need to bring in an infusion of twenty somethings (Think when Naslund, Bertuzzi and Morrison were acquired) to reload, not get more thirty somethings to add to a core of already too many thirty somethings.

In short, there is no one player or one magic bullet to turn this team around, certainly not the FA's available right now. If there is a team to emulate for the Canucks, look no further that the team that took them apart on Saturday, the Anaheim Ducks. They may have missed the playoffs a few times since they won the Cup in 2007 but they've reloaded without much pain compare to the Edmontons and Islanders.



Yeah but one caveat that's lost in signing a top 6 UFA winger, is that it shows that this team is serious about winning, and the next year other players would be more inclined to come here.

Seems like a lot of people understand it's about how well our health stands up next season, if players can just fucking stay healthy for a season our core is then one of the strongest in the NHL, it's just they haven't had much of any help, when your trying to win with Booth and Hansen as your 2nd line wingers, it's not going to help especially when the sedin's and kesler get a injury.

You even seen the effect Santorelli made, some actual scoring talent depth help for the Sedins/Kesler made a world of difference.
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by The Brown Knight » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:56 pm

ukcanuck wrote:
If I'm GM for a day on my shopping list is an offensive Defenceman and a playmaking winger both under thirty and both worth the pay raise its going to take to out bid other teams...

Just some idle thoughts...
Those aren't "idle thoughts." Those are just vague "pie in the sky" ramblings.

Suggest some actual names.

Which offense defensemen do you have in mind? Which playmaking wingers? Who would you consider trading to acquire such pieces?

Why would said teams be willing to trade us an offensive defensemen or a playmaking winger under the age of 30?
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by ukcanuck » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:28 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:
ukcanuck wrote:
If I'm GM for a day on my shopping list is an offensive Defenceman and a playmaking winger both under thirty and both worth the pay raise its going to take to out bid other teams...

Just some idle thoughts...
Those aren't "idle thoughts." Those are just vague "pie in the sky" ramblings.

Suggest some actual names.

Which offense defensemen do you have in mind? Which playmaking wingers? Who would you consider trading to acquire such pieces?

Why would said teams be willing to trade us an offensive defensemen or a playmaking winger under the age of 30?
Mr + superstar is complaining because I meandered through cap geek looking at possible free agents??

wtf? you are the king of half assed, half baked, pie in the sky trade suggestions.

Did you read my post? I suggested UFA Jussi Jokinen as a set up man for our shoot first drive the net happy Kesler and UFA Matt Niskanen as an offensive defence man. I also speculated about an offer sheet for Brandon Sutter as an easy way to pick up an asset without having to give one up in a trade...

These are just passing thoughts put out there to see what others thought.

I will leave the pie in the sky trade suggestion to you, I don't have any blood and chicken bones like you have to predict which other GM is going to gift us their superstar for free...

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Re: The Rebuild

Post by SKYO » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:46 am

Overager or not Dane Fox does have a wicked accurate blast...



Due to his age, I think he'll have a good chance to make the squad next season, just ahead of Horvat and Guance who both probably could use another year of developing in juniors and Gaunce in Utica.
-----------

If Benning comes aboard, coming from the Boston mentality, I highly doubt he trades Kesler, he'll be like off record: are you fucking nuts? We'll build around him, RK just needs some help and that's what I'm here to fucking do bitches. First order of business is to fix this mishmash of a defense we got, too many left side dmen, need to cut one and solidify the right side with some pillar of strength.

Big moves and all out trades to acquire Shea Weber, can't build a winner without the uber dman.
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Hockey Widow » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:17 am

When I listen to that Boston show on the inner brain trust one thing struck me with Benning. He seems to know a players best used by date. He talked about having to part with long term players, core players before their expiry and get youth in the system or players better suited for Bruin hockey via trade. Even if that meant letting Ferrance and Horton walk and trading Seguin. Although they wanted Horton back, badly, not at the cap hit. He talked about red flags with certain players, whether it was not playing physical enough, not being coachable, not learning what the team wanted them to learn in 3 years or injury history and younger cheaper players being able to replace what some of the vets had, if you got the right younger players. When it's time you have to be able to move on.

That seemed to be the thrust of the management meetings and Benning was involved in some of those discussions, especially about knowing when it was time to move on with a player.

If he gets the job here I can see him bringing a similar attitude with no emotional attachment to any of the players. And he pulls no punches.
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Reefer2 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:33 am

Hockey Widow wrote:
If he gets the job here I can see him bringing a similar attitude with no emotional attachment to any of the players. And he pulls no punches.
About damn time, changes are needed to be made anytime the team does not make the playoffs or win the cup. This team needs a major overhaul 3 - 4 core players gone with players coming back. Within 1 - 2 seasons this team could be a contender again.

The player does not want to be traded then make his life hell, unless they start producing on the ice.

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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Betamax » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:29 am

Mondi wrote:All they need to do is stop giving out NTC to lesser players.

There is no point in giving a guy like Alex Edler a NTC.

They could also overpay a little and cut down on ridiculous term. There is great risk in long term contracts for players who aren't young and blue chip.

I think it is possible to get winners to buy into a system that is designed for winning, not comfort.
duh, yeah ... there is a huge point in giving Alex Edler a NTC. If you don't, you lose him to UFA where any team in the running to sign him, will have to include an NTC at a minimum and possibly an NMC. i.e. Canucks lose an asset for NOTHING. That's bad asset management.

One of the good moves former GMMG made was re-signing Edler to the deal ... since he became an asset that can be moved even with the NTC barrier.

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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Meds » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:00 am

Mondi wrote:LA doesn't given out NTCs, they do okay.

All I'm saying is that the NTC model is flawed and has bitten the Nucks in the past.

I'm sure Edler would have re-signed without it, under some circumstance. Maybe it would be worth exploring that, instead of handing out NTCs/NMCs to players who are not top 10 at their position in the league.
Chances are that had GMMG upped the deal to a cap hit of $5.5M he could have gotten Edler to sign without the NTC. All that would have required would have been for Gillis to throw an extra $2M on year 1 and $1M on year 2.

The cap hit would still be movable, but there would be nothing tying the hands of the GM who wants to move him.

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