A Rudderless Ship

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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby herb » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:37 am

Meds wrote:Torts dump and chase hasn't killed our offense. We've watched our offense become more and more ineffective since the beginning of the 2012 season. Momentum and confidence kept us rolling through that season, but by the time we hit the playoffs we saw a change. The perimeter game just quit working. Teams figured out how to shut it down. We didn't have the depth in our top 6 to do much about it. Dump and chase or no dump and chase, until the Sedins figure out that the way they play isn't effective anymore this team will spin its wheels. Until Henrik and Daniel start moving the puck more quickly teams will shut us down. They hang on to the puck for too long looking for something to open up, if they moved the puck quicker it wouldn't let defense react to our shooter fast enough.


Oh for sure, confidence is a big issue. You don’t average 1.5 goals per game for two months and have confidence in your ability to produce offense. You don’t have confidence in one of the worst powerplays in the league either.

My problem with Torts' system is that the Sedins have always been players that need to have the puck ~75% of the time in order to be effective. They work slowly and methodically and always have. The system needs to be flexible enough to allow your core players to thrive. Hank should be allowed to carry the puck. He is so good at protecting the puck while entering the zone that he shouldn’t be forced to dump the puck in because of the system.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Meds » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:57 am

herb wrote:Oh for sure, confidence is a big issue. You don’t average 1.5 goals per game for two months and have confidence in your ability to produce offense. You don’t have confidence in one of the worst powerplays in the league either.

My problem with Torts' system is that the Sedins have always been players that need to have the puck ~75% of the time in order to be effective. They work slowly and methodically and always have. The system needs to be flexible enough to allow your core players to thrive. Hank should be allowed to carry the puck. He is so good at protecting the puck while entering the zone that he shouldn’t be forced to dump the puck in because of the system.


I don't think Hank is dumping the puck in because of the system. I think that he's dumping it in because defenders are standing up at the blueline and preventing the Sedins from carrying it in. The only teams successfully carrying the puck into the offensive zone these days are teams that can do it with speed.

I maintain that the Sedins are not capable of being effective as elite first line players in this NHL. They lack the speed and, as you said they are slow and methodical, that doesn't work when the opponent doesn't let you be slow and methodical. The only times our PP has looked threatening is when the puck has been moved around the zone quickly. Time and again we've seen the puck bouncing quickly between Garrison and Bieksa and Kesler.....then it gets fed to a Sedin and they slow it down and the PK, that was starting to spread out and get a bit scrambled, settles back in and regroups.

Torts also said when he came in that he expect Hank to be someone who shoots the puck. That seemed to be happening at the beginning of the year, but in the last month or so Hank has gone back to passing up golden shooting lanes to the point where he stands there with nobody pressuring him.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby The Brown Knight » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:04 am

Spock wrote:The Canucks organization is like a rudderless ship - wandering aimlessly without direction.



Hey Spock,

Good post, but I'll disagree on one thing:

I can't find the post where you said this, but I think you posed the question, "If the Canucks are going into rebuild, then why sign the twins in the first place?"

Here's my thought: Whether the Canucks are 'going for it' OR 'rebuilding', you have to sign the twins either way. Period. If you're going for it, then obviously the twins can be key pieces. If rebuilding however - then you still need that solid veteran presence to nurture and mentor the up-and-comers.

The proper way to rebuild is to have a good mix of veterans and youth/prospect/up-and-comers.

If you get rid of all your vets, you end up like Edmonton. By the same token, if you hold onto an aging core without getting any youth in the line-up, you ultimately end up like Toronto did in 2004 and Calgary did in 2009.

This is why I believe that Gillis kept the twins.....................while moving Luongo. This is also why I feel that Kesler will inevitably be moved as well (by this Summer or at the draft).

I don't think we're a rudderless ship at all. Depending on what we do with Kesler, I don't think it could take all that long to get back where we need to be.

The idea I've had in mind for a few days now is Kesler and Edler for the Schenn brothers and Simmonds.

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Higgins-Schenn-Simmonds
Burrows-Matthias-Hansen
Gaunce-Horvat-Sestito

Hamhuis-Garrison
Tanev-Bieksa
Schenn-Corrado

Lack
Markstrom.

That team right there fits the descripton of being bigger, younger, and faster.

With freed up cap space (Booth buyout + 85% of Luongo gone), and with guys like Jensen, Shinkaruk, Schroeder, etc., in our system, you could use those assets to bring in another young and gritty defenseman for more depth on defense.

To be honest, I'd also use Tanev and Corrado as bargaining chips to try and get bigger and meaner on defense (I like Tanev a lot but after thinking about this for a few days, I think it's more important for us to get bigger on defense).
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby KeyserSoze » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:13 am

On Luongo...

EVERYONE knew that it was only a matter of time before Luongo was traded. The fact that MG traded Schneider did not change this at all. As someone else mentioned, when Schneider was traded Lack became the future, and Luongo still remained the past.

As for the rest of THIS year - the Canucks are a bit of a long shot to make the playoffs, and a huge long shot to actually win a round. With only 18 games left, the difference between Luongo/Lack & Lack/Markstrom is really not that big IMO...especially when you can't score to save your life. Throw in the fact that Matthias has just 2 fewer goals than Kes & Daniel over the last 2 seasons, and you could argue that this team is actually a bit better now than they were prior to the trade. So that said I am fine with the timing...because if not now it would have happened in the summer.


On Kesler...

dbr wrote:Anyway. Spock is more reasonable than this but I have a fair bit of contempt for the folks who've decided in the last 24 hours that this team is being horribly mismanaged because they didn't move Ryan Kesler for whatever they could get.

This is what I find particularly odd. If Gillis pulled the trigger on ANY of the reported offers, he would have been crucified. Unless he turned down a significantly better offer that we are not privy to, he made the right decision to wait.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Meds » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:14 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:Hey Spock,

Good post, but I'll disagree on one thing:

I can't find the post where you said this, but I think you posed the question, "If the Canucks are going into rebuild, then why sign the twins in the first place?"

Here's my thought: Whether the Canucks are 'going for it' OR 'rebuilding', you have to sign the twins either way. Period. If you're going for it, then obviously the twins can be key pieces. If rebuilding however - then you still need that solid veteran presence to nurture and mentor the up-and-comers.

The proper way to rebuild is to have a good mix of veterans and youth/prospect/up-and-comers.

If you get rid of all your vets, you end up like Edmonton. By the same token, if you hold onto an aging core without getting any youth in the line-up, you ultimately end up like Toronto did in 2004 and Calgary did in 2009.

This is why I believe that Gillis kept the twins.....................while moving Luongo. This is also why I feel that Kesler will inevitably be moved as well (by this Summer or at the draft).

I don't think we're a rudderless ship at all. Depending on what we do with Kesler, I don't think it could take all that long to get back where we need to be.

The idea I've had in mind for a few days now is Kesler and Edler for the Schenn brothers and Simmonds.

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Higgins-Schenn-Simmonds
Burrows-Matthias-Hansen
Gaunce-Horvat-Sestito

Hamhuis-Garrison
Tanev-Bieksa
Schenn-Corrado

Lack
Markstrom.

That team right there fits the descripton of being bigger, younger, and faster.

With freed up cap space (Booth buyout + 85% of Luongo gone), and with guys like Jensen, Shinkaruk, Schroeder, etc., in our system, you could use those assets to bring in another young and gritty defenseman for more depth on defense.

To be honest, I'd also use Tanev and Corrado as bargaining chips to try and get bigger and meaner on defense (I like Tanev a lot but after thinking about this for a few days, I think it's more important for us to get bigger on defense).


I was liking the idea of that deal with Philly. I didn't think it made sense, but when we start hearing that the Flyers are after Kesler and are offering Brayden Schenn, and that they also called about Edler, well there ya go.

Holmgren has now confirmed that he made no offer for Kesler. And why would he? He has Schenn AND Couturier. The Flyers are set down the middle with Giroux centering the top line. Getting Schenn and Simmonds out of Philly isn't going to happen. Time to let it go TBK.

Spock was dead right when he asked, if you are rebuilding why sign a pair of declining 34 year old forwards to 4 year contracts with a raise AND a NTC? Most of us all agreed that you can't replace Hank and Danny's production for the same price via free agency.....well, barring a bounce back next season that is simply not true anymore.

Had Gillis structured the Sedin's deal to be 4 years that looked more like 7-7-6-5.....and NO NTC, then that is alright. Their cap hit is now $6.25M each, and there would have been the option to move them if things really continue to go south.

What is also odd about their re-signing is how early it was done. Most of GMMG's extensions have been done after the Christmas break and closer to the halfway point of the season. Had he waited and held to his usual pattern then I think he would be doing things much differently.

The Sedins, allegedly, have a great work ethic and are fierce competitors. However, I don't see them as being leaders that youngsters should be looking to at this point in their careers. When the chips are down and the game is on the line, all the Sedins have done for the last 2 seasons is cycle like mad men and slow things down. They don't know how to up their game in the pressure situation, they don't know how to play desperate hockey.....or so it seems.

If we are entering a re-build phase then Kesler is the guy you want in the room. Look at what Torts said about him the other day, he's the hardest working guy on the team, he never has to say anything to Kes. Torts level of praise for the twins has really disappeared too. He was all about how good they are and blah blah blah when he came into Vancouver. Now? Now Kesler is receiving his praise, and as the season progressed less was said about the Sedins and more about guys like Kes and Juice.

In this NHL, the Sedins, at 34 years old, are NOT players you build around. They are players you eventually see taking a secondary role at a lesser cap hit, or you show them the door with a pat on the back and a thanks for all the fish.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Cornuck » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:49 pm

If we get a winger or two for Kesler and Sedins end up as our second line, that's a damned good top six.

We should have cap space to bring in at least one impact player.

I'm glad all of this Kesler talk is dying down. It never made sense in the first place.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby The Brown Knight » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:00 pm

Cornuck wrote:If we get a winger or two for Kesler and Sedins end up as our second line, that's a damned good top six.

We should have cap space to bring in at least one impact player.

I'm glad all of this Kesler talk is dying down. It never made sense in the first place.


That's a pretty good thought actually.

The Sedin's may not be elite first line calibre players anymore, but I'm pretty sure they could still be damn good second liners if they were healthy and had reduced roles and responsibilties.

Kassian-Kesler-???
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Higgins-Matthias-Hansen
etc,

My only concern is that we end up like the Toronto Maple Leafs if we don't start moving major core pieces (i.e. an aging and declining core that gradually garners less trade value).

If you move Kesler for solid young pieces, you give this team a new and fresh start.

This team just seems extremely stale and unmotivated to me. They just never really recovered from 2011 and the negative publicity that followed imo.

Having Kesler on a new first line with Kassian and (insert trade acquisition here) might be a good way to go, but I just think this team's primary focus should be on adding to their next core.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby The Brown Knight » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:09 pm

Meds wrote:
The Brown Knight wrote:Hey Spock,

Good post, but I'll disagree on one thing:

I can't find the post where you said this, but I think you posed the question, "If the Canucks are going into rebuild, then why sign the twins in the first place?"

Here's my thought: Whether the Canucks are 'going for it' OR 'rebuilding', you have to sign the twins either way. Period. If you're going for it, then obviously the twins can be key pieces. If rebuilding however - then you still need that solid veteran presence to nurture and mentor the up-and-comers.

The proper way to rebuild is to have a good mix of veterans and youth/prospect/up-and-comers.

If you get rid of all your vets, you end up like Edmonton. By the same token, if you hold onto an aging core without getting any youth in the line-up, you ultimately end up like Toronto did in 2004 and Calgary did in 2009.

This is why I believe that Gillis kept the twins.....................while moving Luongo. This is also why I feel that Kesler will inevitably be moved as well (by this Summer or at the draft).

I don't think we're a rudderless ship at all. Depending on what we do with Kesler, I don't think it could take all that long to get back where we need to be.

The idea I've had in mind for a few days now is Kesler and Edler for the Schenn brothers and Simmonds.

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Higgins-Schenn-Simmonds
Burrows-Matthias-Hansen
Gaunce-Horvat-Sestito

Hamhuis-Garrison
Tanev-Bieksa
Schenn-Corrado

Lack
Markstrom.

That team right there fits the descripton of being bigger, younger, and faster.

With freed up cap space (Booth buyout + 85% of Luongo gone), and with guys like Jensen, Shinkaruk, Schroeder, etc., in our system, you could use those assets to bring in another young and gritty defenseman for more depth on defense.

To be honest, I'd also use Tanev and Corrado as bargaining chips to try and get bigger and meaner on defense (I like Tanev a lot but after thinking about this for a few days, I think it's more important for us to get bigger on defense).


I was liking the idea of that deal with Philly. I didn't think it made sense, but when we start hearing that the Flyers are after Kesler and are offering Brayden Schenn, and that they also called about Edler, well there ya go.

Holmgren has now confirmed that he made no offer for Kesler. And why would he? He has Schenn AND Couturier. The Flyers are set down the middle with Giroux centering the top line. Getting Schenn and Simmonds out of Philly isn't going to happen. Time to let it go TBK.

Spock was dead right when he asked, if you are rebuilding why sign a pair of declining 34 year old forwards to 4 year contracts with a raise AND a NTC? Most of us all agreed that you can't replace Hank and Danny's production for the same price via free agency.....well, barring a bounce back next season that is simply not true anymore.

Had Gillis structured the Sedin's deal to be 4 years that looked more like 7-7-6-5.....and NO NTC, then that is alright. Their cap hit is now $6.25M each, and there would have been the option to move them if things really continue to go south.

What is also odd about their re-signing is how early it was done. Most of GMMG's extensions have been done after the Christmas break and closer to the halfway point of the season. Had he waited and held to his usual pattern then I think he would be doing things much differently.

The Sedins, allegedly, have a great work ethic and are fierce competitors. However, I don't see them as being leaders that youngsters should be looking to at this point in their careers. When the chips are down and the game is on the line, all the Sedins have done for the last 2 seasons is cycle like mad men and slow things down. They don't know how to up their game in the pressure situation, they don't know how to play desperate hockey.....or so it seems.

If we are entering a re-build phase then Kesler is the guy you want in the room. Look at what Torts said about him the other day, he's the hardest working guy on the team, he never has to say anything to Kes. Torts level of praise for the twins has really disappeared too. He was all about how good they are and blah blah blah when he came into Vancouver. Now? Now Kesler is receiving his praise, and as the season progressed less was said about the Sedins and more about guys like Kes and Juice.

In this NHL, the Sedins, at 34 years old, are NOT players you build around. They are players you eventually see taking a secondary role at a lesser cap hit, or you show them the door with a pat on the back and a thanks for all the fish.


All great points Med, and I might be inclined to agree.

Personally however, I just think that this core is finished and that our biggest focus and priority should be in adding valuable pieces to our NEXT core to complement the Horvat's and Shinkaruk's and what have you.

Sedin's won't fetch us very much. Kesler however - will garner huge interest, and I commend Gillis in waiting for the right deal.

I agree with you that the 34 year old twins are not players that you build around, but the presence of the twins and Burrows will allow younger guys such as Horvat and Shinkaruk to ease in to the NHL and get their feet wet. Last thing you want to do is throw them to the wolves in the manner that Edmonton did with Hall, Eberle, RNH, etc.

At the same time - if you keep the twins, Kesler, and most of that 'core' from 2011, you go into Toronto Maple Leaf 2003 territory where the new guys never got a shot and the stale core continued it's decline.

The twins want to be in Vancouver and so I don't think the NTC is too big of a deal. They have little to no trade value anyways.

The problem however is if you let the twins go, you pretty much have to commit to Kesler as being the guy you build around..............and we're not even really sure if Kesler does infact, want to stay here.

Gillis made the right move in signing the twins, whether it was for 'going for it' purposes or rebuilding purposes.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby The Brown Knight » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:17 pm

Meds wrote:In this NHL, the Sedins, at 34 years old, are NOT players you build around. They are players you eventually see taking a secondary role at a lesser cap hit, or you show them the door with a pat on the back and a thanks for all the fish.


To make a long story short - I'd like to see the twins and Burrows act as 'decoys' for us.........even if they are highly expense decoys for the next few years.

Let them take on the top checkers and defensemen of other teams, while you let guys like Horvat, Shinkaruk, Kassian, etc. develop properly in reduced roles. Trade Kesler for future core pieces that will complement Horvat, Shinkaruk, Kassian, etc.

As this new core develops, you can then have them take over the twins' and Burrows' role.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby SKYO » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:20 pm

Cornuck wrote:If we get a winger or two for Kesler and Sedins end up as our second line, that's a damned good top six.

We should have cap space to bring in at least one impact player.

I'm glad all of this Kesler talk is dying down. It never made sense in the first place.


Yup I think all Kesler wants is some frickin wingers who can score, some talent up front, he's probably tired of being surrounded by 3rd liners, AHLers, fringe forwards/has beens/projects and other teams rejects.

No disprect Booth, Dalpe, Hansen, Kassian, Schroeder, Sestito, Burrows etc
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Topper » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:36 pm

Topper wrote:Did they not realize that they still lack a 1st line wing and that 2/3rds of the second line is made up of third liners? This was a perfect scenario to roll the dice on a couple of youngsters and get them into the line up. Dalpe/Santorelli/Richardson/Schroeder? Replace any two of those with Gaunce/Horvat/Shinkaruk, live with the belches and fart and teething pains as the kids go from 6 minutes to 12 minutes a game and be ready to slay it in 2014/2015.

Rather short sighted. Does this reflect back to what HW talks about too many cooks and intervention from ownership?


Cornuck wrote:If we get a winger or two for Kesler and Sedins end up as our second line, that's a damned good top six.

We should have cap space to bring in at least one impact player.

I'm glad all of this Kesler talk is dying down. It never made sense in the first place.


The Brown Knight wrote:That's a pretty good thought actually.

The Sedin's may not be elite first line calibre players anymore, but I'm pretty sure they could still be damn good second liners if they were healthy and had reduced roles and responsibilties.



SKYO wrote:Yup I think all Kesler wants is some frickin wingers who can score, some talent up front, he's probably tired of being surrounded by 3rd liners, AHLers, fringe forwards/has beens/projects and other teams rejects.

No disprect Booth, Dalpe, Hansen, Kassian, Schroeder, Sestito, Burrows etc

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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Spock » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:19 pm

I was not opposed to resigning the Twins - its the term and NTC I have a problem with. 2 years at 7 million would be fine. I think the Canucks are going to regret those final 2 years on the deal.

The truth is this: this team is not good enough to get out of the first round and stands less than a 40% of even making the playoffs with the current squad. IF the goal is to make the playoffs and win a round or two, its clear the current makeup of the team isnt good enough. They HAD TO make a move to improve the team now in order to accomplish that goal.

If the feeling in the office is: this team isnt good enough to even make the playoffs, then the next question is: HOW DO WE GET THERE? Standing still is not helping. Trade the UFAs at least for gawds sake for a bag of pucks and a seventh rounder or a project player. Doing nothing ---does nothing to move the team in the right direction.

A non move was simply a wasted opportunity. I dont think you make the wrong deal for a non-UFA. But what about the UFAs? Why not move them at the deadline??
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby KeyserSoze » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:24 pm

Spock wrote:Trade the UFAs at least for gawds sake for a bag of pucks and a seventh rounder or a project player. Doing nothing ---does nothing to move the team in the right direction.

A non move was simply a wasted opportunity. I dont think you make the wrong deal for a non-UFA. But what about the UFAs? Why not move them at the deadline??

Who exactly are you referring to?

Diaz was a UFA and he got moved for a pick.

The only other UFA's next season are Santorelli (who I am sure they will try to re-sign), and Alberts (who is concussed)...
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Arbour » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:36 pm

A few thoughts on the rudderless ship in the context of the Luongo and Kesler situation:

Who the hell cares about the timing of the Lou deal and whether he got to play in the Heritage Classic. No GM worth his salt is going to discuss with the media the circumstances surrounding any deal. I`ll put another spin on the situation which just as easily fits the factual scenario that the media and in particular Bob McKenzie has floated out. How about Gillis saw an opportunity to possibly move Lou prior to the trade deadline, one of those teams being the very team Lou wanted to go to given Florida's goal tending situation, their new ownership, and their pending cap situation next year.

Gillis then tells Tortorella we are, or intend to try and move Lou prior to the trade deadline so protect the asset. So Gillis prior to discussing anything (with any other team) has unilaterally made the decision to try and deal Lou and Lou doesn't play. Who knows, perhaps other teams had already made discreet inquiries given the fact at this deadline provision existed to retain part of Lou's salary. Cue the local and national sports media who need a little ratings drama leading up to the trade deadline.

The upshot of this whole deal is Lou was traded to the team which was his number one choice and presumably where he most wants to play out his career.

As far as Kesler is concerned and the media pundits suggesting his value is at its highest at the trade deadline, what bullshit. How would they know? If Kesler is available, and I suspect he is, why is his value going to decline over the next three months leading up to the draft? Kesler is not a pending UFA, nor is he third line filler, so it's clear draft picks and role players aren't going to get the deal done. He also has an NTC and can dictate where he eventually ends up, and given Kesler's opinion of himself, it won't be with a rebuilding team.

Any contending team with the assets to acquire Kesler knows he is going to have a high asking price. So any pending trade at the deadline will have cap considerations, roster considerations, and possibly futures involved. No GM in his right mind is going to commit to a knee jerk reaction, and possibly compromise a playoff run to acquire a single player given the market price. Better to do the deal in the off season where the salary cap is expected to rise, the UFA market is clearer and those intangibles such as team chemistry aren't affected.

If anything the above increases the number of potential suitors and one would assume correspondingly increases Kesler's value absent the usual and very real trade deadline constraints.

This brings me back to the topic of the thread and why we appear to be a rudderless ship. Gillis's major failing is that he has become far too enamored with his core group of players. It's been mentioned in other threads that the decline started with the conclusion of the cup run. Two early playoff exits only served to confirm the Canuck’s did not have the personnel to remain competitive when it counted.

That decline has been exacerbated by Gillis's penchant for NTC's. NTC's while generally not written in stone do tend to restrict a timely turnover of assets. In fact in my opinion they are an easy way out for a GM to get a deal done where security is the carrot to take less financially. In a salary cap environment it lessens a GM’s concern about what may happen if the team cannot afford the player in question, and subsequently where a team is aging or losing, initially prevents the incremental replacement of players who are no longer as productive as they once were. The so called “core” then becomes a liability instead of an asset.

I’m not suggesting NTC’s should never be used as an inducement, but that they should be used sparingly with consideration that they do have a downside which may outweigh any short term advantage in contract negotiations. It may be that a player has to be moved before it is preferable, but it is better to deal from strength rather than desperation.

Finally in respect to the Sedins: one of the problems in dealing with veteran players is eventually the money they are paid is predicated upon not what they will do, but on what they have done. Unfortunately Gillis has fallen into this trap with the Sedins. Perhaps more money and a shorter term would have been a better option given the predicted rise of the salary cap. In any event it remains to be seen whether Gillis can now make those decisions which should have been made over the last three years.

Edit: Apologies for the rant
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Spock » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:14 pm

I should have said UFAs + RFAs that the Canucks have no intention of resigning....
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