A Rudderless Ship

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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby mathonwy » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:33 pm

Strangelove wrote:I've been a Lou apologist forever, but I can't forgive him for that garbage.

And I can't believe I'M THE ONLY ONE ripping him for this.

That is a possibility yes. So ultimately it was an ego thing.

Did Luo actually mean anything malicious by that tweet? No. I don't think he did. I think he was thinking he was being pretty funny and really did not think of the implications involved. So Luo was thoughtless. Boo fucking hoo.

So if this is indeed what happened and its not too farfetched to think it did, it still takes two to tangle. And Torts took it upon himself teach Luo a lesson by not playing him in the Heritage Classic (and standing by the decision).

So, that is what is called pettiness. Talking it out? Nah, that's too easy. Let's exact some payback (and really piss off the fanbase in doing so).

Err... this is not just some scrub you're exacting public vengeance on. This is Roberto Strombone1 Luongo who the court of public opinion holds in very high regard at this point of time due to your bosses complete incompetence in managing last year's Schneider deal.

But they did what they did and Luo said fuck it and he did what he did.

And now my favourite team is out a gold medal winning team Canada goalie.

FUCK!
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Strangelove » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:14 pm

sagebrush wrote:The events of the last few days don't change my opinions on Gillis, Torts, Luongo, or what the Canucks should be doing.

Luongo's history, & the events leading up to the trade deadline, make Luongo's trade a logical, if not a predictable consequence.

The whining of fickle fans is pathetic.


Ahhhh.... :thumbs:
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Strangelove » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:33 pm

mathonwy wrote:Did Luo actually mean anything malicious by that tweet? No. I don't think he did. I think he was thinking he was being pretty funny and really did not think of the implications involved. So Luo was thoughtless. Boo fucking hoo.


He thought he was being funny by mocking the team and creating more drama.

Well you don't mock your team and create more drama... PERIOD.

Any self-respecting team-respecting coach would have punished him somehow.

mathonwy wrote:So if this is indeed what happened and its not too farfetched to think it did, it still takes two to tangle. And Torts took it upon himself teach Luo a lesson by not playing him in the Heritage Classic (and standing by the decision).

So, that is what is called pettiness. Talking it out? Nah, that's too easy. Let's exact some payback (and really piss off the fanbase in doing so).


It's more important to send a strong message to Luongo and the rest of the team than to cater to the fans.

It's not "pettiness" and it's not "payback".

It's called discipline.

Despite what Lou had come to believe, he is/was NOT bigger than the team.

Luongo has always been a prima donna and Torts has always been anti-prima-donna.

I love Torts, he was brought in to figure out what/who is wrong with this team and I believe he will

(eventually).

He was brought in to destroy the clubhouse atmosphere and I believe he will.

Not an easy job, it involves tough love with the players.

It involves dealing with much pissing and moaning from some of the more fragile fans + media.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby mathonwy » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:00 am

So.. you're in favor of the tough love. The my way or the highway type of leadership eh?

Yep, that style sure worked out for Mike Keenan (who's in Russia right btw).

So, this "strong message" that you feel that it's important to send to a group of adults. Shape up or I'm going to punish you like I did to Luo?

:roll:

Yep, ruling by fear always works right?

Fear me or suffer the consequences?

FUCK YOU AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON. (not you Strange. Just in general)

This ain't the army. This is a hockey team. And even if it WERE the army. Trying to control ANYONE through fear tactics is an idiot's way of leading.

And it's not like the team needed MORE bullshit to deal with.

Take your blinders off man. We are having the worst season imaginable. Not one player is having a good season. TBK wants to trade the whole team away. RD is gaining divine powers!! THE WHOLE WORLD HAS GONE NUTS!!

Luo may be a bit of a prima donna but he's also damn good too. Torts fucked our team by pissing on Luo (rightly or wrongly, it doesn't really matter) and ultimately getting Luo traded away in the middle of one of our most fucked up seasons ever.

Let's just pretend that the Canucks still want to make the playoffs. Who gives you the better chance to do so? Luo or Matthias and Markstrom?

Tort's ego shouldn't be bigger than the team. But it is right now.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby sagebrush » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:15 am

Torts sat the prima donna down, because there's only room for one ego on Torts team (IMO) - good.

The Luongo trade finally came through, after Luongo raised his value by making the Olympics - good. I don't give a shit who did the leg work.

We had 3/4 of a season of Luongo mentoring Lack, after Gillis failed to trade him last summer - good.

The tandem of Lack/Markstrom (+15% of Luongo's cap) frees up 6.2M$ cap space from the tandem of Luongo/Schneider - good.

If Booth is bought out, that gives the Canucks 4.25 (Booth) + 3.3 (0.85*Luongo-Markstrom) = 7.55M$ extra cap for FAs in the summer - good.

Gillis didn't trade Kesler for what Pittsburgh offered - good.

All this BS about festering broken hearts, & who said what about whom can be left to the media.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby dbr » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:36 am

So is this the Pat Brisson quote everyone is getting worked up about with regards to the Heritage Classic?

“If Lu had played Sunday the talks with the Canucks might have taken place at a later time”

Translation: this was going to happen and sitting for a prestige game might have affected its timing.

To me, if a guy wants out and your season is over anyways, fuck it, get a deal done.

It's kinda funny that Torts apparently was the straw that broke the camel's back to be honest..

As for the "rudderless" comments made by Spock I think they could easily be accurate; right now that's not the worst thing in the world but obviously the team had better have its shit figured out come draft day. What would be truly disastrous though would be if this 'ship' had its 'rudder' but was in fact being steered in the completely wrong direction - can you imagine if the team took a look at the price buyers were paying and decided to beat Montreals offer with Gaunce and a guaranteed pick?

Anyway. Spock is more reasonable than this but I have a fair bit of contempt for the folks who've decided in the last 24 hours that this team is being horribly mismanaged because they didn't move Ryan Kesler for whatever they could get. I get that looking at what this team has done in the last year or so will lead some to think management has little direction or vision; personally I think the retool has been going on for awhile now and that along with that they've had some personnel problems to handle (like Luongo) - this season has been a catastrophe on the ice though so hopefully Gillis and co. are seeing that, regrouping and making decisions about how to continue to address the long term future of this organization without going into the toilet in the next couple of years here.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Topper » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:13 am

Wow, I spent the day trying to keep melt water from flooding my shop, and just browsed through this.

A few comments;

I commented in the past that often the horses in the stable don't fit the riding style of the new jockey. I believe Torts is making that clear to management that at the 2/3rds pole there are some horses he wants to run with and some he doesn't.

I think Kesler and Bieksa are Torts horses. Kassian and Hansen could be Torts horses. I had very little belief in the Kesler rumours the last few days. Little of it made any sense to me. Kesler is the type of player all teams look to add, not subtract.

I have mentioned before that I don't believe the twins are cut out for Torts dump and chase offence and that has had a huge impact on their output. But here's the rub, The Sedins are not going anywhere, management won't allow it, the fan base won't allow it. Tortorella needs to learn, as his predecessor did, to open up the game plan and allow the Sedins to be creative. Let them play outside the dump and chase and play their puck possession game. Teams have figured out that physical close checking stymies the cycle, I'm sure the twins and the powers to be can see that the points and the high slot open up in these scenarios.

Ditch Sullivan. The word on him coming in was he's too much like his boss when it comes to dealing with players. HW hinted that his style is a problem and was an issue during Tororella's suspension, even with Guletzen. Assistant coaches are often the father/confessor link between the players and the Head Coach and it sounds like that is missing with Sullivan. It is a move that also pulls the reins on Tortorella.

I have no idea if the Classic was the straw that broke the camel's back on Luongo but everyone has know that for personal family reasons Luongo wanted out for the last two years and management was doing everything to accommodate him. I'm sure in most of the routine, touching base calls between GMMG and his peers, there would be mention that Luongo was still out there and available. Anyone who thinks the tweet on the Kesler rumours was significant needs to grow some skin and a sense of humour, stop reading tea leaves and playing with ouji boards.

I can't blame Tortorella, when the performances are nearly equal, for favouring the guy who wants to stay over the guy who wants to go. The moment CS was traded, Eddie became the future and Luongo remained the past. That said, Tortorella underestimated the fan response. When the Classic went south and fans were chanting for Luongo from the centre court stands, Tortorella had embarrassed his owners.

If Vancouver had won .....?

Two deals going into this season that I have not liked. Burrows. He should never have been re signed. I wanted him gone two years ago. He could have been a throw in with Luongo to make that deal more attractive or sent on his own but should have been gone. Giving him the deal he got was irresponsible.

Second, was the failure to realize the team had problems heading into this year with the combination of cap restraints and realignment. Did they think they were still in tight with LA, Anaheim, St Louis and San Jose? Did they fail to see Phoenix is real, Dallas, Minnesota (with the Suter/Parise deal) emerging?

Did they not realize that they still lack a 1st line wing and that 2/3rds of the second line is made up of third liners? This was a perfect scenario to roll the dice on a couple of youngsters and get them into the line up. Dalpe/Santorelli/Richardson/Schroeder? Replace any two of those with Gaunce/Horvat/Shinkaruk, live with the belches and fart and teething pains as the kids go from 6 minutes to 12 minutes a game and be ready to slay it in 2014/2015.

Rather short sighted. Does this reflect back to what HW talks about too many cooks and intervention from ownership?
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby mathonwy » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:33 am

Topper wrote:Wow, I spent the day trying to keep melt water from flooding my shop, and just browsed through this.

That sucks. Hope you got insurance.


Topper wrote:Rather short sighted. Does this reflect back to what HW talks about too many cooks and intervention from ownership?


One fact that I forgot and I was reminded of recently was that Torts was an Aquilini signing. Not a Gillis signing. If Gillis had had his way, I think we would have John Stevens as the coach instead of Torts.

I guess what really set me off was the mishandling of Luongo at the Heritage Classic. I'm a firm believer in diplomatic means to resolve conflict as well as fostering a positive work culture. Diplomacy and positivity will get you miles farther than ruling through an iron fist. I still maintain that Luo was trying to be funny and not malicious. He was coming off a pretty amazing Olympics where he had to do NOTHING and still got a gold medal out of it. Then he comes back, and Torts starts Lack in three consecutive games creating a goalie controversy where there was none. That's both shortsighted and egotistic and this decision cost us a world class goaltender (at the wrong time) and sends incredibly mixed messages to the fanbase. Are we tanking or are we trying to make the playoffs? I have no fucking idea.

As Torts is Aquilini's boy and as a result, Gillis may have had no say in who starts in the Heritage Classic then this clusterfuck starts at the top and that is Aquilini. We will never know the truth until Gillis says fuck this and resigns.

I think Torts is bad for the team and needs to be gone. Too many bad things have happened this season with the entire team and the common thread is Torts. His lack of a filter is concerning and his judgement at the Winter Classic was horrendous (as well as his follow up comments). We need cool and calm right now. Not firey and hot tempered.

Gillis, like ratski, I will wait to see what he does in the summer. If Aquilini really is pulling all the strings right now then Gillis needs to do the right thing and resign. There have been too many rumours of a meddling owner that there can't NOT be a grain of truth somewhere in there.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby herb » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:38 am

mathonwy wrote:Take your blinders off man. We are having the worst season imaginable.


LOL. You are such a drama queen.

Everyone and their dog said at the beginning of the year that the Canucks are going to be in a dog fight to make the playoffs. The intelligent posters on this here board were calling this a transition year. Depth needs to come from within, and most of us knew that help was at least a year away. We knew the cap went down and screwed any chances of us getting help. We knew our depth sucked. We knew the new Pacific Division was going to be hell. We knew there was going to be a compressed schedule due to the Olympics.

One month to go, and lookie there, the Canucks are in a dog fight to make the playoffs. I'm a bit surprised that we're as close to a playoff spot as we are, given we have lost 10 of 11.

This "worst season imaginable" has all been so predictable.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby mathonwy » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:49 am

herb wrote:
mathonwy wrote:Take your blinders off man. We are having the worst season imaginable.


LOL. You are such a drama queen.

Everyone and their dog said at the beginning of the year that the Canucks are going to be in a dog fight to make the playoffs. The intelligent posters on this here board were calling this a transition year. Depth needs to come from within, and most of us knew that help was at least a year away. We knew the cap went down and screwed any chances of us getting help. We knew our depth sucked. We knew the new Pacific Division was going to be hell. We knew there was going to be a compressed schedule due to the Olympics.

One month to go, and lookie there, the Canucks are in a dog fight to make the playoffs. I'm a bit surprised that we're as close to a playoff spot as we are, given we have lost 10 of 11.

This "worst season imaginable" has all been so predictable.


Sorry Herb that I don't meet your intelligence bar. Will you forgive me?

If the only thing that was happening with the Canucks was that they weren't playing well then that would one thing.

But... thats not the only thing that's happened. Our top line hasn't scored this year. Burr has ZERO goals. We had an AHL defense in January. Luo's gone. Our coach decided to storm the Flames locker room. Dank is done for the season. Hank probably still has busted ribs. Kesler allegedly wants out.

Edit.

We threw away Dale Weise for a 5th round pick.... :(

It's a lot for a poor fan to take. It would be much easier to stomach middling .500 hockey than this crazy ass rollercoaster ride (STRAIGHT TO HELL) that we're currently in right now.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Hockey Widow » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:58 am

What we call a meddling owner MG calls working in partnership. he was hired by committe and he works as part of a committee. He has always said that ownership has it's say, and he adds, as they should, but at the end of the day he makes all hockey related decisions, with input from all stakeholders.

Translation, MG isn't going to suddenly resign because of ownership involvement. These were the terms of his hiring, this has always been how the relationship works, he knew that going in. I could see, as a dog that wears two collars, President and GM, that he could get punted to the top and a new GM brought in. Sorta like BB and Kevin Lowe. You get tired of their act as GM, fine, let them run the hockey operations but bring in a lap dog as a GM. That may in fact be a very good solution here.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby herb » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:05 am

mathonwy wrote:Sorry Herb that I don't meet your intelligence bar. Will you forgive me?

If the only thing that was happening with the Canucks was that they weren't playing well then that would one thing.

But... thats not the only thing that's happened. Our top line hasn't scored this year. Burr has ZERO goals. We had an AHL defense in January. Luo's gone. Our coach decided to storm the Flames locker room. Dank is done for the season. Hank probably still has busted ribs. Kesler allegedly wants out.

It's a lot for a poor fan to take. It would be much easier to stomach middling .500 hockey than this crazy ass rollercoaster ride (STRAIGHT TO HELL) that we're currently in right now.


I didn't say that, you did.

I don't think all is well and good in Canuckville, and would not advocate that. When I watch Kesler's interviews or the practice clips, he doesn't look like a guy who wants out to me.

Scoring has been a huge problem. Tortorella's dump and chase offensive "system" has killed our offense. The PP is a fucking hot mess.

I don't know what the hell has happened to Dank and Burrows, but zero goals on nearly 80 shots sounds at least partly due to just shitty luck on the part of Burrows.

Lots of problems as you are aware. I'm just saying we figured this was going to be a tough season, and it has been. Injuries have played a part. Former 30 goal scorers scoring zero goals has played a part. Coaching and management have had their roles too.

If we don't see Horvat on the team next year, and Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Cassels, Jensen, Grenier and Fox getting serious looks in training camp then I will be pissed.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby herb » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:11 am

Hockey Widow wrote:What we call a meddling owner MG calls working in partnership. he was hired by committe and he works as part of a committee. He has always said that ownership has it's say, and he adds, as they should, but at the end of the day he makes all hockey related decisions, with input from all stakeholders.

Translation, MG isn't going to suddenly resign because of ownership involvement. These were the terms of his hiring, this has always been how the relationship works, he knew that going in. I could see, as a dog that wears two collars, President and GM, that he could get punted to the top and a new GM brought in. Sorta like BB and Kevin Lowe. You get tired of their act as GM, fine, let them run the hockey operations but bring in a lap dog as a GM. That may in fact be a very good solution here.


For years the management team here (Gillis, Gilman, Henning) was considered excellent. They managed to the cap with near perfection, built a workable salary structure that they have stuck too and have signed/re-signed guys to fair contracts. Heck they even won an award (GM of the year).

Now they don't trade one of our best most loyal and hardest working players, and trade a disgruntled guy who has wanted out for years, and everybody wants to run management out of town. Introduce yourselves to Canucks fans, everyone!
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Meds » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:18 am

mathonwy wrote:So.. you're in favor of the tough love. The my way or the highway type of leadership eh?

Yep, that style sure worked out for Mike Keenan (who's in Russia right btw).

So, this "strong message" that you feel that it's important to send to a group of adults. Shape up or I'm going to punish you like I did to Luo?


The tough love was needed for this group. There were some players here who simply loved the country club and were content with the current system where the inmates ran the asylum. These "adults" are coddled millionaires who get everything they want. The only true adversity in their lives is having to deal with the Vancouver media. Very few successful sports teams are run by the players. Vigneault gave them the keys to the kingdom and for 12 months they couldn't figure out how to play consistent hockey. Gillis fired AV and gave the keys to Torts.

mathonwy wrote:Let's just pretend that the Canucks still want to make the playoffs. Who gives you the better chance to do so? Luo or Matthias and Markstrom?


Team can't score a goal to save their skins. They can't hold onto leads late in the game. Eddie Lack has been putting up much better numbers than Luongo. So we subtract a very good goaltender who is struggling and whose very presence is adding drama to the mix, and we add a young backup goaltender and a center who should anchor our third line. Yes this gives us the better chance right now.

While I think it was a dick-move to play Lack over Louie in the Classic, that's a coach's job some times. If Torts is being straight up, and there's no reason to second guess his honesty here, then playing Lack was the smarter hockey choice for a team that desperately needed 2 points. It didn't work, but it was the smarter choice. Politically it was terrible, but politics aren't why you hire a coach.

[quote="mathonwy"
I think Torts is bad for the team and needs to be gone. Too many bad things have happened this season with the entire team and the common thread is Torts. His lack of a filter is concerning and his judgement at the Winter Classic was horrendous (as well as his follow up comments). We need cool and calm right now. Not firey and hot tempered.[/quote]

Scotty Bowman would be bad for this team right now. You may be right when you say that this is a hockey team, not the army, however, some of these guys make more in a season then a soldier will make in 20 years. I think they should be held at least as accountable as a $40K/yr soldier. And quite frankly, the other teams in the league show up with marching orders, "Give no quarter." Other teams approach this as time to go to war, but the country club Canucks wilt when facing that kind of opponent. Why shouldn't these guys be ready for that. I think Torts was brought in specifically to be "bad for the team".

Our team was full of mentally fragile players who just collapse and screw up in big moments. Torts is here to weed out the ones who can't be toughened up and to toughen up the ones who just needed a new motivator.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Meds » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:24 am

herb wrote:I didn't say that, you did.

I don't think all is well and good in Canuckville, and would not advocate that. When I watch Kesler's interviews or the practice clips, he doesn't look like a guy who wants out to me.

Scoring has been a huge problem. Tortorella's dump and chase offensive "system" has killed our offense. The PP is a fucking hot mess.

I don't know what the hell has happened to Dank and Burrows, but zero goals on nearly 80 shots sounds at least partly due to just shitty luck on the part of Burrows.

Lots of problems as you are aware. I'm just saying we figured this was going to be a tough season, and it has been. Injuries have played a part. Former 30 goal scorers scoring zero goals has played a part. Coaching and management have had their roles too.

If we don't see Horvat on the team next year, and Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Cassels, Jensen, Grenier and Fox getting serious looks in training camp then I will be pissed.


Torts dump and chase hasn't killed our offense. We've watched our offense become more and more ineffective since the beginning of the 2012 season. Momentum and confidence kept us rolling through that season, but by the time we hit the playoffs we saw a change. The perimeter game just quit working. Teams figured out how to shut it down. We didn't have the depth in our top 6 to do much about it. Dump and chase or no dump and chase, until the Sedins figure out that the way they play isn't effective anymore this team will spin its wheels. Until Henrik and Daniel start moving the puck more quickly teams will shut us down. They hang on to the puck for too long looking for something to open up, if they moved the puck quicker it wouldn't let defense react to our shooter fast enough.
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