A Rudderless Ship

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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Meds » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:42 pm

mathonwy wrote:Gillis traded Schneid because he couldn't trade Luo.

It's not logical to make Luo the back up for the entire year and then trade your starter.

The fact that Schneid was dealt for Horvat is irrelevant. It's about Gillis being unable to move Luo.


Quit being so intentionally obtuse RD mathonwy.

Nobody could have moved Luongo between the end of the 2011-12 season and the end of 2013's shortened season. There was a trade freeze because of the lockout. The only offer for Luongo at the 2012 deadline that came close to happening was, allegedly, a low-ball bullshit offer from Nonis and ownership had, apparently, said no way to any salary retention on the part of the Canucks. After the trade freeze cap space was at a premium and the new CBA included recapture penalties that weren't in place when Lou signed his contract. The very fact that they went back to include cap circumventing contracts from the old CBA in the new one instead of just grandfathering them through and no more going forward was absolute bullshit on the part of Bettman and the NHL.

So a couple of questions for you.....

1. Do you disagree that Luongo's contract and cap hit was actually a very good deal for the Canucks under the old CBA when he signed it?

2. Do you disagree that Luongo's cap hit is actually still a steal under the new CBA when compared to other top 10 goaltenders (FYI he made 52 saves last night in a Florida win over San Jose).

3. Do you agree or disagree that most teams that needed Lou's services could not have taken on Luongo's salary simply did not have the cap space because of salary cap rollback this year?
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:15 pm

Nice breakdown there Mathowny . :lol:

The bad trades are the Booth, Ballard and Roy deals. Thats it . No idea why you are whining about Quinton Howden as the four skaters taken immediately after him will all be far better players. Your point may have had a little more steam had you mentioned you were bummed that the team didn't get a crack at Kuznetsov, Coyle, Nelson or Etem. So you would like Howden instead of Jensen maybe ? Because the choice of the 2010 pick or the 2011 pick was Vancouver's to make.

Crying about the Pahlsson trade is hilarious. It's water under the bridge and is the going rate for 3rd / 4th line players at the deadline until this year. Also who exactly did the team miss out on in regards to the Steve Bernier deal / He was a highly regarded , big , young player at the time and he gave the team two decent years and a decent top 9 forward when it had ZERO forward depth thanks to previous management. Maybe you were a big Brad Isbister fan ?? Couldn't get enough of Byron Ritchie ?

The trades for both Higgins and Yappy were very good deals. Even SOB for a useless Krajicek was ok. As for the Kassian deal no way is that anything worse than a draw at this point regardless if the little runt is padding his stats on the NHL's anus of a franchise. He couldn't play 18- 20 minutes here- not even fucking close. Schneider had to go because Eye Bags bungled the Luongo non trade. the whole crybaby act about how he treated poor Roberto and the sneaky contract was cute though. I can imagine violins playing in the background as I type this. Very moving shit.

Much ado about nothing though.

I am ambivelant about Eye Bags future but some of that drivel needed to be responded to.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Island Nucklehead » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:40 pm

mathonwy wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:Why don't we wait and see how Bo Horvat does before saying trading Schneider was a bad move?


Gillis traded Schneid because he couldn't trade Luo.

It's not logical to make Luo the back up for the entire year and then trade your starter.

The fact that Schneid was dealt for Horvat is irrelevant. It's about Gillis being unable to move Luo.

And trading Schneid for a top 10 pick is an easy trade to make because Schneid is a solid goaltender.


You're being critical of Gillis' trades, and calling the Schneider trade a FAIL, right? I don't care what the circumstances were around the trade itself. You can't call the Schneider-Horvat deal a "FAIL" until you see what Horvat becomes.

Island Nucklehead wrote:With all the rumours surrounding Kesler wanting out, and the Canucks spot in the standings, do you think it's Gillis' fault teams are low-balling him? We'll see how he does in the summer.

When people like general managers smell weakness, they take full advantage of it. Yes, I do hold Gillis a little bit accountable for appearing weak and not keeping his house in order.


So it's Gillis' fault the players have gotten themselves hurt or generally under performed to epic levels this year? And isn't NOT trading Kesler because the offers were shit exactly what Gillis should have done? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Should he have dumped Kesler for nothing?

Island Nucklehead wrote:To me, most of those moves are a lot of MEH. Taylor Ellington plays in Europe. Steve Bernier was regarded highly enough to be offer-sheeted by St Louis. The Ballard trade was a disaster, but the Ehrhoff deal probably got us to the finals. Higgins and Lapierre trades also had a huge impact on this team. We gave up nothing for Booth, except cap space. At the time it was low-risk, high reward.


You can judge Gillis's trades at the time or you can judge Gillis's trade right now. Ultimately though, its the results that count when it comes to whether you keep your job or not.


The Hindsight is strong with this one.

Island Nucklehead wrote:You're acting like Connauton is some kind of top prospect, he's a bottom-pairing guy on Dallas.


I'm acting like Derek Roy is no longer part of the Canuck organization and Dallas has two assets that were previously ours.


You must've been really pissed about adding guys like Higgins and Lapierre then, eh? Some deadline deals work, most don't. Derek Roy was the best player in that trade, and he didn't work out, so he wasn't resigned. Unless you think Connauton or Philippe Desrosiers are going to be studs, I don't think you gave up much for the potential of what Derek Roy could have been.

Mathonwy wrote:
So far, the Buffaslugs are winning this trade hands down.

Hodgson is averaging 18:10 in ice time this season with 16G, 19A and a loverly -25.
Kassian, 13:31, 11g,8a,-10 and 8 games suspended.

and Kassian is having a hell of a time trying to break into the top 6 (considering how goal starved we have been this season, that's pretty bad).


Yeah they sure are. Winning all the way to the #1 overall draft pick. Fantastic rationale.

Mathonwy wrote:Both Detroit and Pittsburgh have cups in the last decade. Won cup, doesn't matter about trades.


I don't understand this argument. Because Pittsburgh won a cup in 2009 that excuses trading for Morrow last year? Bad trades are bad trades, are they not? Would you be critical of the Roy trade if Vancouver won the cup in 2011? This line of thinking is why Kevin Lowe still has a job...
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Island Nucklehead » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:52 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Much ado about nothing though.

I am ambivelant about Eye Bags future but some of that drivel needed to be responded to.


Pretty much my thoughts Blobster.

Gillis can stay or go. His shine has worn off from our run, but let's at least be somewhat rational in our thinking about what this team needs and wether or not he's the right guy to do it. I get a kick out of the retards using their time machines to point out how bad of a GM he's always been. As though he could have predicted having no post-lockout market for Luongo, or having the cap go down, or his typically-consistent first line falling completely apart in a matter of months...

Unfortunately, in this market, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. No matter what Gillis does people are going to shit their pants and the reconsider every trade he's ever made as though its some kind of trend of awfulness. I imagine when his re-tooling works and the Canucks are back in the playoffs people will be singing his praises, wondering how we managed to get Bo Horvat, Jacob Markström and a ton of cap space for Luongo and Schneider. 8-)
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Meds » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:59 pm

Blob Mckenzie wrote:The bad trades are the Booth, Ballard and Roy deals. Thats it . No idea why you are whining about Quinton Howden as the four skaters taken immediately after him will all be far better players. Your point may have had a little more steam had you mentioned you were bummed that the team didn't get a crack at Kuznetsov, Coyle, Nelson or Etem. So you would like Howden instead of Jensen maybe ? Because the choice of the 2010 pick or the 2011 pick was Vancouver's to make.


And ironically, none of those deals looked bad when the deals were made.

Booth should have provided speed, energy, physical play, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 50+j points. Things we weren't getting from Samuelsson and Sturm. Booth looked like he might be a nice addition when he showed up, then he got hurt.....and he was a total bust.

Ballard should have provided a top 4 presence to our bottom pairing. He should have brought some tenacious play coupled with skating ability and offensive upside. He showed up here post-surgery (hernia I think), and then got hurt blocking a shot in his first or second game. Vigneault never gave him a chance after that. Ballard never really did much to earn it. Who knew.

Roy should have provided us with some talented depth and scoring punch at center. A position we had been struggling to find any real consistency at below Hank and Kes. Vigneault played him on the wing. No idea why. Roy never clicked here and was a complete disaster. We gave up a 2nd round pick and Connauton for him. Who knows what the 2nd round pick would have brought us.....Connauton was no great loss though.

The trades themselves were fine. It was the results we got once they showed up here that sucked.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Hockey Widow » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:01 pm

Meds wrote:
As for the the misogynist comment that LB accused him of, I don't see it. But maybe there is other history at play here that none of us are aware of. To say that HW gets it, is pretty much on point as she gets most hockey related stuff better than most other people, I certainly didn't view that as a gender related slight against HW. More like she has been around and following this team for as long, or longer, than most of us and she isn't panicking or freaking out because she gets the ebb and flow of a professional sports team.....maybe because she saw them go from nothing at their inception and suck for the better part of 20 years with a miracle run in 82 and some good teams in the mid-90's, then sucking again in the.



Sorry to burst your bubble but I only started following the Canucks during the playoffs of 1994. Up until 1995 I was a die hard Leaf fan. I found myself doing almost 4 years penance in Calgary before HNIC did the double broadcast so I could no longer watch the Leafs every Saturday night and could not stomach Calgary, the city, the people, the team, or well anything, so by default I began to follow the Canucks during the 94 playoff run.

Next year I escaped Calgary and moved to VCR and have been a Canucks fan ever since. Really I was bilingual :lol: :lol: I cheered for the Leafs in the East and the Canucks in the West. People like Donny, and Doc and a few others beat the Leaf loving right out of me until I saw the light. Now I watch them just to see them lose. I can't cheer for them if I try.

Hell I remember the glory of the 1967 Cup win, but it has been misery since that, so in that respect you are right, years and years of misery.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby dbr » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:25 am

mathonwy wrote:I like how you ridicule on one hand and how you graciously ignore on the other hand. There's that close mindedness again we all know and love (with a teeny bit of arrogance thrown in) :thumbs: .


Well I don't see where "close mindedness" enters into it but as for the rest that's... that's the joke.

You can't and I can't definitively say Mike Gillis does or doesn't have what it takes to make a major move at the draft. We only have his body of work to make our observations off of. Based on my personal observations, I don't think he's got what it takes.


I know. The problem is that your opinion is based entirely on your "personal observations" which seem to directly contradict the facts.

I can't explain any other way you could get from Mike Gillis' body of work (which includes completing the biggest trade in two of the last four NHL drafts) to 'he doesn't have what it takes to make a major move at the draft.'

- Luo

Gillis's handling of Luo's situation was beyond ludacris. Gave Luo a sneaky contract that ultimately handcuffed us. He couldn't trade Luo because of whatever. There were many rumors but nothing happened. And then Gillis did something noone expected and traded Schneid and made Luo the starter again. This is after pissing in Luo's face for 3/4s of a season by making him a back up.

GOOD WORK GILLIS :crazy:

Also, giving Gillis credit for the Luo trade is goofy.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Anatomy+Canucks+Roberto+Luongo+trade+Florida+with+video/9583787/story.html

Gillis wasn't going to trade Luo at the deadline. It was Torts that forced the issue and it was Brisson that picked up the phone (LIKE I SAID).

Let's look at Gillis's trade history

*snip*

Fail. Steve "Hands of Stone" Bernier.

*snip*

Meh. Babs was a good stop gap measure I guess.

*snip*

:thumbs:

*snip*

Since Alberts is still with the Canucks, I guess it's ok?

*snip*

Meh.

*snip*

Fail. Quinten Howden looks like a great hockey player in the making.

*snip*

:thumbs:

Obviously Higgins is a crucial part of our team right now and Lappy played a big role in our cup run. However, these were both low risk trades as both Higgins and Lappy were well travelled journeymen by that point of time.

*snip*

:thumbs:

Getting something for a pending UFA is always good.

*snip*

Booth is a fail. Even though we didn't give up anything of significant, Booth's cap hit still hurts.

Kassian for Hodgson...I personally think Kassian is a very stupid hockey player and would way rather have stumpy on the team.

Pahlsson... :mad: That's a lot to give up for NOTHING.

*snip*

FAIL.

KConn has played 34 games for the Stars this season logging an average of 15:06 of ice time.

And a second round draft pick....

*snip*

See above.



--

From a trade perspective, Gillis has lost way more than he has won.

The Hodgson trade wasn't made under good pretenses as the situation was toxic and adversarial. And what we got back was a hockey player with a child's brain in a man's body.

The Luo / Schneid / Winter Classic / Florida situation was just foobared.

Gillis was holding the shinest trade chip at this past deadline but couldn't make it work because everyone was lowballing him.

And people still trust him to make trades this coming summer.

I trust him to sign and to resign players. Beyond that, fuggedaboutit.


OK.

Well this doesn't really have anything to do with what I was saying and the things in here I disagree both with your conclusions and how you seem to have arrived at them, but I don't have a lot of motivation to go through pointing out problems with it so for the sake of brevity I'm not even going to wade into it.

(But OMG, dude, the pictures of text thing..)

I am having a hard time figuring out if you just didn't understand what I was saying (and are under the impression this is all relevant to it), or if you were just really excited to rehash six years worth of trades and this wasn't even really a response to my post? :?
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby herb » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:19 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:
To me, most of those moves are a lot of MEH. Taylor Ellington plays in Europe. Steve Bernier was regarded highly enough to be offer-sheeted by St Louis. The Ballard trade was a disaster, but the Ehrhoff deal probably got us to the finals. Higgins and Lapierre trades also had a huge impact on this team. We gave up nothing for Booth, except cap space. At the time it was low-risk, high reward. You're acting like Connauton is some kind of top prospect, he's a bottom-pairing guy on Dallas. The Kassian deal was youth-for-youth, and the jury is still out. Kassian hasn't put up points, and Hodgson still can't be responsible in his own zone.


Yup.

The Ballard trade was bad. Gillis certainly did not handle the Luongo-Schneider situation well, and the two trades together don't look great IMO. Other than that, Gillis has made some very good to just OK trades. I suspect if you looked at every GM in major sports you'd find similar results.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Jovocop » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:50 am

herb wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:
To me, most of those moves are a lot of MEH. Taylor Ellington plays in Europe. Steve Bernier was regarded highly enough to be offer-sheeted by St Louis. The Ballard trade was a disaster, but the Ehrhoff deal probably got us to the finals. Higgins and Lapierre trades also had a huge impact on this team. We gave up nothing for Booth, except cap space. At the time it was low-risk, high reward. You're acting like Connauton is some kind of top prospect, he's a bottom-pairing guy on Dallas. The Kassian deal was youth-for-youth, and the jury is still out. Kassian hasn't put up points, and Hodgson still can't be responsible in his own zone.


Yup.

The Ballard trade was bad. Gillis certainly did not handle the Luongo-Schneider situation well, and the two trades together don't look great IMO. Other than that, Gillis has made some very good to just OK trades. I suspect if you looked at every GM in major sports you'd find similar results.


Looking back at the Ballard trade, what MG could have done is trading a pick to Nashville/Philly/Pittsburgh for Hamhuis' negotiation right instead of trading for Ballard. However, it is pretty easy to look back... :mrgreen:
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Meds » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:16 pm

Jovocop wrote:
herb wrote:
Island Nucklehead wrote:
To me, most of those moves are a lot of MEH. Taylor Ellington plays in Europe. Steve Bernier was regarded highly enough to be offer-sheeted by St Louis. The Ballard trade was a disaster, but the Ehrhoff deal probably got us to the finals. Higgins and Lapierre trades also had a huge impact on this team. We gave up nothing for Booth, except cap space. At the time it was low-risk, high reward. You're acting like Connauton is some kind of top prospect, he's a bottom-pairing guy on Dallas. The Kassian deal was youth-for-youth, and the jury is still out. Kassian hasn't put up points, and Hodgson still can't be responsible in his own zone.


Yup.

The Ballard trade was bad. Gillis certainly did not handle the Luongo-Schneider situation well, and the two trades together don't look great IMO. Other than that, Gillis has made some very good to just OK trades. I suspect if you looked at every GM in major sports you'd find similar results.


Looking back at the Ballard trade, what MG could have done is trading a pick to Nashville/Philly/Pittsburgh for Hamhuis' negotiation right instead of trading for Ballard. However, it is pretty easy to look back... :mrgreen:


Yeah.....great idea. Waste a pick when you already know that Hamhuis wants to sign here and won't be signing anywhere else.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Jovocop » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:20 pm

Meds wrote:
Jovocop wrote:Looking back at the Ballard trade, what MG could have done is trading a pick to Nashville/Philly/Pittsburgh for Hamhuis' negotiation right instead of trading for Ballard. However, it is pretty easy to look back... :mrgreen:


Yeah.....great idea. Waste a pick when you already know that Hamhuis wants to sign here and won't be signing anywhere else.


Do you really know what you are talking about?? If MG knew Hamhuis was 100% not going to sign with Philly or Pittsburgh and committed to sign in Vancouver, he most likely would not have traded for Ballard. It was not hard to figure out that Ballard was a backup plan.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Strangelove » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:24 pm

Jovocop wrote:Do you really know what you are talking about?? If MG knew Hamhuis was 100% not going to sign with Philly or Pittsburgh and committed to sign in Vancouver, he most likely would not have traded for Ballard. It was not hard to figure out that Ballard was a backup plan.


Exactly.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Vader » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:58 am

Jovocop wrote:
Do you really know what you are talking about?? If MG knew Hamhuis was 100% not going to sign with Philly or Pittsburgh and committed to sign in Vancouver, he most likely would not have traded for Ballard. It was not hard to figure out that Ballard was a backup plan.


Nope.

Gillis had three pending UFA defensemen Erhoff, Bieksa and Salo.

Immediately after dealing for Ballard, Gillis was seen down on the draft floor speaking to other GM's about Bieksa. Ballard was brought in to replace Bieksa. Gillis doesn't get a deal he likes and decides to try and move Bieksa at a later date.

Hamhuis signs on July 1st

Salo ruptures achilles heal on July 22 and Bieksa is retained as he is the only RH shot. Why Gillis would think having just one RH shot made sense in his top 6 is another head scratcher.

It's clear the plan was to bring 2 new defensemen in and ship out Bieksa.

It's dumb luck that Gillis retained Bieksa, who was the teams best defenseman in the Canucks getting to the SCF.

He's lucky that Ballard deal didn't hurt the team worse than it did.

Why do poster's feel the need to defend every move Gillis makes?
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Boston Canucker » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:42 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:
I don't understand this argument. Because Pittsburgh won a cup in 2009 that excuses trading for Morrow last year? Bad trades are bad trades, are they not? Would you be critical of the Roy trade if Vancouver won the cup in 2011? This line of thinking is why Kevin Lowe still has a job...


If the Canucks won the Cup in 2011 I wouldn't be critical of any subsequent trades simply because I'd still be drunk, wandering the streets half naked screaming "we won the Cup!" :)
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Vader » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:42 am

Island Nucklehead wrote:Steve Bernier was regarded highly enough to be offer-sheeted by St Louis.

Oh for crying out loud!

That's got to be one of the silliest things I've ever read here

Bernier was offer sheeted in retaliation to Gillis taking a run at Backes.

Bernier was an RFA when Gillis traded for him. That means Gillis could speak to him about a contract. He should have had a contract worked out and then pulled the trigger on the trade

It was obvious St.Louis was going to send an offer sheet to Bernier. Gillis wound up paying Bernier $1M than he should have, which made him the salary dump when trading for Ballard

Gillis wound up looking like a fool

Stop defending every move Gillis makes
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