A Rudderless Ship

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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby rats19 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:47 am

Spock wrote:All I want is this -

For management to show that they have a plan for the team to get better. To show us that there really is a captain at the head of this ship, not "steering by committee".

I disagree with posters who don't think this team needs a rebuild.

Look at the on-ice product. That last game - 3rd period was shameful. Where is the pride? Where is the push-back?

ITS NOT THERE. It hasn't been there often this season. Players are giving up on one another. This season is lost.

The organization needs to seriously re-evaluate its players, determine who can be part of a rebuild. I think it will be 2-3 seasons *at least* until this team is ready to be a realistic playoff contender. Too many passengers, not enough players...

*Spock gets flashbacks of 1996*

Would be nice if they came out and stated as such...but we will likely have to wait and see if this can or will be achieved...very nice to have you posting semi-regularly Spock..
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Topper » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:35 am

Spock wrote:*Spock gets flashbacks of 1996*

The acid test.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

1 - State the plan is to rebuild/retool could get players motivated to play for their jobs, media circus ensues as speculation runs rampant as to who's in and who's out.

Then again, with all the NTC/NMC, the roster has the last say on where they go.

2 - State they are staying the course, ie "we'll look at offers that make sense to us and will get the team better yadda yadda yadda" an story that we have been hearing for years. Media circus ensues that management has lost direction and may be in the Straights of Malacca.

I prefer (2). Shifts media attention off the ice and lets them try to figure things out while managements with their broad shoulders is swatted at by Gollum, Macintire and the rest of the gnats.

When you get right down to it (1) is fully within the realm of (2).

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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby BurningBeard » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:38 pm

dbr wrote:When you have no business winning games, it's pretty well impossible to crumble under the weight of expectations and prove to message board posters everywhere that you're "mentally fragile."

All of a sudden I understand the direction the Nucks have taken. :P
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby LotusBlossom » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:04 am

Arachnid wrote:Jesus, are you really that thick?

It's business.

That is all.

If it is entertainment then change the channel, watch something else. Pick another movie if that one sucks.

Pick another team, be a bandwagoneer for all we care.

If you are a true loyal fan you abide by your team through the shyte times and the great times.


Truth, but everyone is entitled to their opinion on how to cheer on this team or not. Agree or disagree, but he's made his point.

If you have ever played any organized sports (and I highly doubt it at this point), you would know that it's cyclical. Boom & bust. Boom & bust.
Welcome to the bust.


I hardly call 'adult safety league hockey' and ball hockey any sort of higher level organized sport. Stop spewing your assumptions about his life,if you really don't know. For all you know, he plays rugby for team BC. But the snobbery you constantly project in your posts, shows yet again towards another member of this board. You're an almost 50, active guy who thinks he's better than anyone else on this board because you have a young GF. No, have a seat, you only think you're better. Keep your attitude in check. It's old, redundant and God damn boring. STFU for once and maybe listen. Amazing what happens when that occurs.

Cheer it, revel in it, look forward to the next cycle of the boom. But first comes the explosion.

Widow gets it, most get it.

Widow gets it? Is that supposed to mean, she's only a woman but she 'gets it'? If you display another misogynstic of posting again, I will keep track and I will ban you. I'm tired of your demeaning insults you always seem to bring to this forum. Keep it in the dead man's forum, where I don't give a shit, but it doesn't belong here. You got that? Good, if not, I'll make sure you got it.

Hell even Team Canada went through it (neither business or entertainment but national pride) from the disaster in Calgary, Nagano to the triumph in Vancouver (and Salt Lake, Sochi).

You MUST be a Leaf fan, there is no doubt in my mind.


Yes, because insulting him about being a Leafs fan justifies everything you don't agree with. How about you do yourself a favour and take a step down from you fucking pedestal and wake the fuck up and give a little respect to your fellow posters. There is a much better way to disagree with people without acting like a total dick towards them.

PS, I've already personally talked to Brian about all this.You think he's going to rule with you or me? Arachnid, it's obvious you can't play nice. Not sure how many postings you make without being a complete and condescending asshole, so, I will remind you exactly as to why I can ban you. If you're going to disagree, do it without trying to demean a person and stick to the valid points. If you stray on this board, I will ban you. I don't care if they other mods don't agree, but I am TIRED of your shit.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby The Brown Knight » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:36 am

LotusBlossom wrote:
Arachnid wrote:Jesus, are you really that thick?

It's business.

That is all.

If it is entertainment then change the channel, watch something else. Pick another movie if that one sucks.

Pick another team, be a bandwagoneer for all we care.

If you are a true loyal fan you abide by your team through the shyte times and the great times.


Truth, but everyone is entitled to their opinion on how to cheer on this team or not. Agree or disagree, but he's made his point.

If you have ever played any organized sports (and I highly doubt it at this point), you would know that it's cyclical. Boom & bust. Boom & bust.
Welcome to the bust.


I hardly call 'adult safety league hockey' and ball hockey any sort of higher level organized sport. Stop spewing your assumptions about his life,if you really don't know. For all you know, he plays rugby for team BC. But the snobbery you constantly project in your posts, shows yet again towards another member of this board. You're an almost 50, active guy who thinks he's better than anyone else on this board because you have a young GF. No, have a seat, you only think you're better. Keep your attitude in check. It's old, redundant and God damn boring. STFU for once and maybe listen. Amazing what happens when that occurs.

Cheer it, revel in it, look forward to the next cycle of the boom. But first comes the explosion.

Widow gets it, most get it.

Widow gets it? Is that supposed to mean, she's only a woman but she 'gets it'? If you display another misogynstic of posting again, I will keep track and I will ban you. I'm tired of your demeaning insults you always seem to bring to this forum. Keep it in the dead man's forum, where I don't give a shit, but it doesn't belong here. You got that? Good, if not, I'll make sure you got it.

Hell even Team Canada went through it (neither business or entertainment but national pride) from the disaster in Calgary, Nagano to the triumph in Vancouver (and Salt Lake, Sochi).

You MUST be a Leaf fan, there is no doubt in my mind.


Yes, because insulting him about being a Leafs fan justifies everything you don't agree with. How about you do yourself a favour and take a step down from you fucking pedestal and wake the fuck up and give a little respect to your fellow posters. There is a much better way to disagree with people without acting like a total dick towards them.

PS, I've already personally talked to Brian about all this.You think he's going to rule with you or me? Arachnid, it's obvious you can't play nice. Not sure how many postings you make without being a complete and condescending asshole, so, I will remind you exactly as to why I can ban you. If you're going to disagree, do it without trying to demean a person and stick to the valid points. If you stray on this board, I will ban you. I don't care if they other mods don't agree, but I am TIRED of your shit.


This is an excellent post Lotusblossom and I wholeheartedly agree with it.

Without the risk of deviating from hockey talk, I also agree that Arachnid's conduct and overall demeanor on this forum is far beyond distasteful and unacceptable, and that I would support Lotusblossom's decision in seeing Arachnid being banned. If there is one thing that I truly cannot stand on here, it's cyber-bullying.

Most of us are adults on this forum and I think we need to set a good example to the younger generation of posters on here. Unfortunately, I do feel that Arachnid's conduct here greatly comprises that, and that Arachnid poses a significant threat to the integrity and well being of the forum.

Lotusblossom, Brian, and Cornuck: Although you certainly don't need my affirmation, I'm going to give it to you anyways. If you decide to ban Arachnid, you have my blessing.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Meds » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:41 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:This is an excellent post Lotusblossom and I wholeheartedly agree with it.

Without the risk of deviating from hockey talk, I also agree that Arachnid's conduct and overall demeanor on this forum is far beyond distasteful and unacceptable, and that I would support Lotusblossom's decision in seeing Arachnid being banned. If there is one thing that I truly cannot stand on here, it's cyber-bullying.

Most of us are adults on this forum and I think we need to set a good example to the younger generation of posters on here. Unfortunately, I do feel that Arachnid's conduct here greatly comprises that, and that Arachnid poses a significant threat to the integrity and well being of the forum.

Lotusblossom, Brian, and Cornuck: Although you certainly don't need my affirmation, I'm going to give it to you anyways. If you decide to ban Arachnid, you have my blessing.


Nothing like an endorsement from a formerly banned member in regards to banning someone else eh TBK.....

I don't find Arachnid to be anymore insulting or condescending than Topper or even Doc sometimes. It's just the way in which they go about it. Spidey is just more expletive and direct. I just ignore it and get a laugh out of cyber bullies. They have no real clout, just what you give them here. If he's so offensive to someone I say just add Arachnid to your list of ignored posters and carry on.

As for the the misogynist comment that LB accused him of, I don't see it. But maybe there is other history at play here that none of us are aware of. To say that HW gets it, is pretty much on point as she gets most hockey related stuff better than most other people, I certainly didn't view that as a gender related slight against HW. More like she has been around and following this team for as long, or longer, than most of us and she isn't panicking or freaking out because she gets the ebb and flow of a professional sports team.....maybe because she saw them go from nothing at their inception and suck for the better part of 20 years with a miracle run in 82 and some good teams in the mid-90's, then sucking again in the late 90's....etc.....

Again.....who knows, maybe some history that we aren't privy to.

Regardless, I don't see Arachnid being any better or worse for the overall reputation of this forum's quality than posters who flip flop left and right on their opinions and in general throw out ideas that are at the level of a grade 6 in terms of overall insight. He doesn't seem to go back and delete his own posts to cover up his foot-in-mouth gaffs, he just throws it up there like so many of the rest of us. He's really no more or less antagonistic than RD or Doc, or even myself, again, he's just more in your face about it.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby rats19 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:51 pm

my 2cents.

TBK...not your place to make those comments...the ice is very thin underneath your sneakers my friend remember?

LB: what the hell? You are never around and now all this? whats is up?

if its personal ..please keep it that way. Are you getting PM's from posters complaining or what?
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby dbr » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:19 pm

mathonwy wrote:
dbr wrote:
No I'm ridiculing the notion that "Mike Gillis doesn't have what it takes to make" a major move at the draft. For better or worse he's done it twice now.

(And I'm graciously ignoring the ludicrous implication that a GM with enough clout can somehow compel other GMs to make substantially different trade offers for a given player than they otherwise might, all else being equal.)


I think this bears an extended conversation and I don't want to derail an Alex Burrows appreciation thread (BECAUSE ALEX ROCKS YO). Would you be ok to move this conversation to the rudderless thread?


I don't really have much else to say but I didn't want to leave your comment ignored..

I think it's goofy to say Mike Gillis "doesn't have what it takes to make a major move" in response to someone saying (paraphrasing here) 'watch him do nothing at the draft.' You may not like either trade but until the Luongo deal his two biggest trades by a country mile were finalized on the draft floor. His track record literally contradicts your statement.

I think the offers at the deadline for Ryan Kesler sucked because of the situation the Canucks were in (if you read Friedman regularly you will recall every time a team is in trouble he mentions that fellow GMs would much rather throw you a boat anchor than a life preserver) much much MUCH moreso than because Mike Gillis is some kind of pariah.

I don't have anything else to say on the matter at this point.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby mathonwy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:36 pm

I like how you ridicule on one hand and how you graciously ignore on the other hand. There's that close mindedness again we all know and love (with a teeny bit of arrogance thrown in) :thumbs: .

You can't and I can't definitively say Mike Gillis does or doesn't have what it takes to make a major move at the draft. We only have his body of work to make our observations off of. Based on my personal observations, I don't think he's got what it takes.

- Luo

Gillis's handling of Luo's situation was beyond ludacris. Gave Luo a sneaky contract that ultimately handcuffed us. He couldn't trade Luo because of whatever. There were many rumors but nothing happened. And then Gillis did something noone expected and traded Schneid and made Luo the starter again. This is after pissing in Luo's face for 3/4s of a season by making him a back up.

GOOD WORK GILLIS :crazy:

Also, giving Gillis credit for the Luo trade is goofy.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Anatomy+Canucks+Roberto+Luongo+trade+Florida+with+video/9583787/story.html

Gillis wasn't going to trade Luo at the deadline. It was Torts that forced the issue and it was Brisson that picked up the phone (LIKE I SAID).

Let's look at Gillis's trade history

Image

Fail. Steve "Hands of Stone" Bernier.

Image

Meh. Babs was a good stop gap measure I guess.

Image

:thumbs:

Image

Since Alberts is still with the Canucks, I guess it's ok?

Image

Meh.

Image

Fail. Quinten Howden looks like a great hockey player in the making.

Image

:thumbs:

Obviously Higgins is a crucial part of our team right now and Lappy played a big role in our cup run. However, these were both low risk trades as both Higgins and Lappy were well travelled journeymen by that point of time.

Image

:thumbs:

Getting something for a pending UFA is always good.

Image

Booth is a fail. Even though we didn't give up anything of significant, Booth's cap hit still hurts.

Kassian for Hodgson...I personally think Kassian is a very stupid hockey player and would way rather have stumpy on the team.

Pahlsson... :mad: That's a lot to give up for NOTHING.

Image

FAIL.

KConn has played 34 games for the Stars this season logging an average of 15:06 of ice time.

And a second round draft pick....

Image

See above.



--

From a trade perspective, Gillis has lost way more than he has won.

The Hodgson trade wasn't made under good pretenses as the situation was toxic and adversarial. And what we got back was a hockey player with a child's brain in a man's body.

The Luo / Schneid / Winter Classic / Florida situation was just foobared.

Gillis was holding the shinest trade chip at this past deadline but couldn't make it work because everyone was lowballing him.

And people still trust him to make trades this coming summer.

I trust him to sign and to resign players. Beyond that, fuggedaboutit.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby mathonwy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:42 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:
Lotusblossom, Brian, and Cornuck: Although you certainly don't need my affirmation, I'm going to give it to you anyways. If you decide to ban Arachnid, you have my blessing.


Sycophantic bullshit

It really is hard to take you serious TBK when you post such garbage posts.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Island Nucklehead » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:14 pm

mathonwy wrote:The Luo / Schneid / Winter Classic / Florida situation was just foobared.

Gillis was holding the shinest trade chip at this past deadline but couldn't make it work because everyone was lowballing him.

And people still trust him to make trades this coming summer.

I trust him to sign and to resign players. Beyond that, fuggedaboutit.


Why don't we wait and see how Bo Horvat does before saying trading Schneider was a bad move?

With all the rumours surrounding Kesler wanting out, and the Canucks spot in the standings, do you think it's Gillis' fault teams are low-balling him? We'll see how he does in the summer.

To me, most of those moves are a lot of MEH. Taylor Ellington plays in Europe. Steve Bernier was regarded highly enough to be offer-sheeted by St Louis. The Ballard trade was a disaster, but the Ehrhoff deal probably got us to the finals. Higgins and Lapierre trades also had a huge impact on this team. We gave up nothing for Booth, except cap space. At the time it was low-risk, high reward. You're acting like Connauton is some kind of top prospect, he's a bottom-pairing guy on Dallas. The Kassian deal was youth-for-youth, and the jury is still out. Kassian hasn't put up points, and Hodgson still can't be responsible in his own zone.

You can pick any GM in the league and dissect their trades, and you'll see good ones and bad ones. Even Ken Holland traded Fleischmann and the draft pick that turned into Mike Green for Robert Lang. Even Ray Shero gave up a first rounder for Brendan Morrow.

One thing is for sure, Gillis has plenty of work to do with this roster. Hopefully it's clear to ownership that we are not close to contending, and there needs to significant roster moves. If they understand that, Gillis should be given the opportunity to make moves.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby mathonwy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:50 pm

Island Nucklehead wrote:Why don't we wait and see how Bo Horvat does before saying trading Schneider was a bad move?


Gillis traded Schneid because he couldn't trade Luo.

It's not logical to make Luo the back up for the entire year and then trade your starter.

The fact that Schneid was dealt for Horvat is irrelevant. It's about Gillis being unable to move Luo.

And trading Schneid for a top 10 pick is an easy trade to make because Schneid is a solid goaltender.

Island Nucklehead wrote:With all the rumours surrounding Kesler wanting out, and the Canucks spot in the standings, do you think it's Gillis' fault teams are low-balling him? We'll see how he does in the summer.

When people like general managers smell weakness, they take full advantage of it. Yes, I do hold Gillis a little bit accountable for appearing weak and not keeping his house in order.

Island Nucklehead wrote:To me, most of those moves are a lot of MEH. Taylor Ellington plays in Europe. Steve Bernier was regarded highly enough to be offer-sheeted by St Louis. The Ballard trade was a disaster, but the Ehrhoff deal probably got us to the finals. Higgins and Lapierre trades also had a huge impact on this team. We gave up nothing for Booth, except cap space. At the time it was low-risk, high reward.


You can judge Gillis's trades at the time or you can judge Gillis's trade right now. Ultimately though, its the results that count when it comes to whether you keep your job or not.

Island Nucklehead wrote:You're acting like Connauton is some kind of top prospect, he's a bottom-pairing guy on Dallas.


I'm acting like Derek Roy is no longer part of the Canuck organization and Dallas has two assets that were previously ours.

Island Nucklehead wrote:
The Kassian deal was youth-for-youth, and the jury is still out. Kassian hasn't put up points, and Hodgson still can't be responsible in his own zone.


So far, the Buffaslugs are winning this trade hands down.

Hodgson is averaging 18:10 in ice time this season with 16G, 19A and a loverly -25.
Kassian, 13:31, 11g,8a,-10 and 8 games suspended.

and Kassian is having a hell of a time trying to break into the top 6 (considering how goal starved we have been this season, that's pretty bad).

Island Nucklehead wrote:
You can pick any GM in the league and dissect their trades, and you'll see good ones and bad ones. Even Ken Holland traded Fleischmann and the draft pick that turned into Mike Green for Robert Lang. Even Ray Shero gave up a first rounder for Brendan Morrow.


Both Detroit and Pittsburgh have cups in the last decade. Won cup, doesn't matter about trades.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Hockey Widow » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:04 pm

This is the first time since he has been GM that he has had to seriously contemplate trading from the core, Luongo notwithstanding. Whether he can successfully trade from the core will depend, in large part, whether those pieces agree to be moved and to where. His fault he gave the NTC but that is the reality. Most teams are giving them away to some extent.

He has done a good job in filling bottom 6 roles and in solidifying the defence. He has done a good job at getting players re-signed. He hasn't had to make significant trades yet.

I am glad the twins are back for four more years but wish he had waited. I think 4 years at 7 million per is steep. If they can get healthy and back on track well ok then, but if this is what we can expect over the next four years, yikes.

MG is who we have and I don't think he is getting fired. Could be wrong, one never knows and the water boy has said failing to make to playoffs is not an option. But I think he comes back. I think Torts gets asked a lot of questions about what went wrong and what he needs. I think they talk with Kesler and see where his head is at. I think they talk to Edler and see where his head is at. I think they do nothing. I think MG says this season is an anomaly, injuries were unprecedented, the new system played havoc. I think we see Booth gone, Jensen slated to be top six and maybe a little tinkering. I think when it goes bad again next season we hear the Kesler rumblings again.

Then I see MG fired.
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby mathonwy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:13 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:I think they talk with Kesler and see where his head is at. I think they talk to Edler and see where his head is at.


You think Kesler's going to stick around? If Kesler jumps ship to an organization like the Hawks or Anaheim, he could very well win a cup next year while (I retch whenever I see Kesler in a Hawk or Duck uni) we get some good young pieces back. For a guy that suffers as many injuries as Kesler does, I'm not sure if he would really want to stick around for the retool/rebuild.

Edler desperately needs a new start somewhere else. I think the Canucks would be doing Alex a big favor trading him.

Hockey Widow wrote: I think when it goes bad again next season we hear the Kesler rumblings again.

Then I see MG fired.


When... or if?

:shock:
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Re: A Rudderless Ship

Postby Topper » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:33 pm

mathonwy wrote:You can't and I can't definitively say Mike Gillis does or doesn't have what it takes to make a major move at the draft.

Odd. You just stated he doesn't have what it takes that in another thread

mathonwy wrote:Because Mike Gillis doesn't have what it takes to make that big deal.


http://www.canuckscorner.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197735#p197735

Mathowny. You said the same as the following in another thread and DBR and I took you to task with it there, do we need to do the same here? How about I just insert the quotes before you ask the mods for more deletions.

mathonwy wrote:Gillis was holding the shinest trade chip at this past deadline but couldn't make it work because everyone was lowballing him.

And people still trust him to make trades this coming summer.

I trust him to sign and to resign players. Beyond that, fuggedaboutit.


http://www.canuckscorner.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197759#p197759
Topper wrote:
mathonwy wrote:You got every GM trying to low ball him at the trade deadline

So you say it is GMMG' fault others may have been low balling him.

mathonwy wrote:when he's got arguably the one of the more impactful players allegedly available at a trade deadline in Ryan Kesler.

Butt you are not certain Kesler was available.

Oh Mathowny, you better talk to the Mods again about deleting for you.


http://www.canuckscorner.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197768#p197768
dbr wrote:
mathonwy wrote:
dbr wrote:
Yeah, if we wanna make something happen at draft day let's fire Mike Gillis and go get the GM who was involved in the biggest trade of the last draft day!

I mean, the other GM involved in that trade.


You're defending Mike Gillis? Because.... he's proven to be such an astute trader right? ... :|


No I'm ridiculing the notion that "Mike Gillis doesn't have what it takes to make" a major move at the draft. For better or worse he's done it twice now.

(And I'm graciously ignoring the ludicrous implication that a GM with enough clout can somehow compel other GMs to make substantially different trade offers for a given player than they otherwise might, all else being equal.)
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

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