Kesler has requested a trade

[herb]

I like Kesler. A lot. Great player. He is not a #1 centerman however. He is just a great #2 shutdown type. A great playoff type centerman.

He is not the center this team can build around for the future. He is old enough that he won't be around for the next resurgence of the team and not skilled offensively enough to carry a young team.

Agreed on Kesler.

I don't necessarily agree that this team can't quickly turn things around. There are some good young players coming along, with hopefully another top 10 draft pick in the stable. Maybe I am just too optimistic about the chances of a couple of these guys working out next year.

[Zedlee]

Personally, I cannot see any team giving up a "good young second line centre" for Kesler....why would they willingly take an aging, injury prone but still very good 2nd line centre for a younger version? Not going to happen.

A team is way more likely to give up draft choices, prospects or a second line winger for Kes, so any trade involving 17 is a "re-build"...as Spock has stated. And it is time for a re-build imo, the only problem is I really don't want to see Gillis in charge of a re-build. He's had loads of time to draft and develop younger players and has failed.

"Re-build" starts with a new GM and new coach....and I hope that happens sooner rather than later.

[Southern_Canuck]

In my opinion, the needs are great. Sadly, this team full of NTCs is going to implode without enough return I believe. I don't want it to be a long term rebuild - I just think it *will be that*. I hope I'm wrong. It was hard to watch the 1997 and 1998 seasons.

So, if I understand you correctly, you believe both that the Canucks badly need to rebuild, and that the Canucks will rebuild badly...



S_C

[Spock]

it is time for a re-build imo, the only problem is I really don't want to see Gillis in charge of a re-build. He's had loads of time to draft and develop younger players and has failed.

"Re-build" starts with a new GM and new coach....and I hope that happens sooner rather than later.

That is a discussion for another thread....

I think, historically speaking, the Canucks have not been a shining example of how to build a team through the draft. And I have to admit, I am not sure how they get there. But were I the owner, I think that is how I would approach this team. Build from the draft - find a GM who has credibility as a talent evaluator at the OHL/WHL level - or who has contacts/friends/good-ol-boys network who could do it for them.

[Spock]

In my opinion, the needs are great. Sadly, this team full of NTCs is going to implode without enough return I believe. I don't want it to be a long term rebuild - I just think it *will be that*. I hope I'm wrong. It was hard to watch the 1997 and 1998 seasons.

So, if I understand you correctly, you believe both that the Canucks badly need to rebuild, and that the Canucks will rebuild badly...



S_C

Yes SC - I think the Canucks will likely bungle a draft rebuild (see above post) and wont get as many picks or *quality* of picks as they'd like due to the NTCs--- players with NTCs will likely veto trades to crap teams - meaning the Canucks get picks in range of 20-32 rather than 1-15.

[herb]

He's had loads of time to draft and develop younger players and has failed.

I agree. Fire Gillis now so we can give the new GM grief for not developing young players fast enough and benefiting from the previous administration. Then we can give Gillis credit for Lack, Markstrom, Tanev, Stanton, Kassian, Jensen, Shinkaruk, Horvat, Corrado, Lain, Gaunce, Cassels and Fox.

[Topper]

I think, historically speaking, the Canucks have not been a shining example of how to build a team through the draft. And I have to admit, I am not sure how they get there. But were I the owner, I think that is how I would approach this team. Build from the draft - find a GM who has credibility as a talent evaluator at the OHL/WHL level - or who has contacts/friends/good-ol-boys network who could do it for them.

That goes back to the hometown discount/NTC/NMC hanging onto players for too long (Burrows-Sedins) and not letting go early enough that value can be had in return.

It is how Montreal built their teams in the 60's-70's and how Chicago is doing so now.

I can see why it was done in the belief that the core was a hair breadth from winning it all, but in 20/20 hindsight, that short sighted approach was a failed gambit.

[Jovocop]

He's had loads of time to draft and develop younger players and has failed.

I agree. Fire Gillis now so we can give the new GM grief for not developing young players fast enough and benefiting from the previous administration. Then we can give Gillis credit for Lack, Markstrom, Tanev, Stanton, Kassian, Jensen, Shinkaruk, Horvat, Corrado, Lain, Gaunce, Cassels and Fox.

[KeyserSoze]

I think the main cause for this teams decline since the cup run is two-fold...

1) They have not drafted and developed any impact players since 2003~2004 (Kesler, Edler, Schneider)
2) They have not been able to make any significant improvements via trade since Luongo & Ehrhoff

I see a re-build through the draft as a long, painful process that involves sucking balls for quite some time, drafting high in strong draft years, and developing these picks properly. And even then there are no guarantees, as we have seen with several teams who have drafted high for several seasons and still cannot contend.

IF the club feels that their current prospect pool can make a genuine impact over the next 1-2 years (our prospects looks better now than it has in a long time), and IF the club feels it can improve by making some significant trades, I think it would be best to do just that (which would end up as more of a "re-tool").

I'm torn on Kesler. He is the type of player that EVERY GM wants on their team. The guy is a selke trophy winner, and shares that honor with players like Toews, Bergeron, Datsyuk, and Brind'Amour. I understand when people say he is not capable of being a #1 C...but that said he centred USA's top line and put up strong numbers when playing with the Sedins. Let's not forget that he has been playing with 3rd line wingers in Vancouver. If Kes wants to stay I think I'd lean towards keeping him, but only if he really wants to stay and you can acquire a true impact winger to play with him as part of the teams new top line moving forward.

[Island Nucklehead]

I'm torn on Kesler. He is the type of player that EVERY GM wants on their team. The guy is a selke trophy winner, and shares that honor with players like Toews, Bergeron, Datsyuk, and Brind'Amour. I understand when people say he is not capable of being a #1 C...but that said he centred USA's top line and put up strong numbers when playing with the Sedins. Let's not forget that he has been playing with 3rd line wingers in Vancouver. If Kes wants to stay I think I'd lean towards keeping him, but only if he really wants to stay and you can acquire a true impact winger to play with him as part of the teams new top line moving forward.

It really is a coin-toss. I think injuries are catching up with him and I doubt his willingness to re-sign here if we're going through a rebuild. If both those assumptions are correct, we're better off biting the bullet and dealing him while his value is the highest. The more of his great contract we use up, the less value he has to other GM's that obviously (and rightly) covet him. HW has indicated that nobody formally asked Kesler to waive, so there was never an offer worth accepting at the deadline. I'm going to assume that changes in the summer when the cap goes up and teams reload.

Basically, if the offers for Kesler were as rumoured, we might as well keep him for another year. I'm fairly sure we could get a Brandon Sutter, 1st rounder, decent prospect kind of deal after next season. If someone steps up and starts offering up their #1 prospect+1st round pick, we need to look at dealing him.

Would this team be that much worse off by moving Kesler for Brayden Schenn+, and then adding a guy like Paul Stastny through free agency?

[Diehard1]

I'm torn on Kesler. He is the type of player that EVERY GM wants on their team. The guy is a selke trophy winner, and shares that honor with players like Toews, Bergeron, Datsyuk, and Brind'Amour. I understand when people say he is not capable of being a #1 C...but that said he centred USA's top line and put up strong numbers when playing with the Sedins. Let's not forget that he has been playing with 3rd line wingers in Vancouver. If Kes wants to stay I think I'd lean towards keeping him, but only if he really wants to stay and you can acquire a true impact winger to play with him as part of the teams new top line moving forward.

It really is a coin-toss. I think injuries are catching up with him and I doubt his willingness to re-sign here if we're going through a rebuild. If both those assumptions are correct, we're better off biting the bullet and dealing him while his value is the highest. The more of his great contract we use up, the less value he has to other GM's that obviously (and rightly) covet him. HW has indicated that nobody formally asked Kesler to waive, so there was never an offer worth accepting at the deadline. I'm going to assume that changes in the summer when the cap goes up and teams reload.

Basically, if the offers for Kesler were as rumoured, we might as well keep him for another year. I'm fairly sure we could get a Brandon Sutter, 1st rounder, decent prospect kind of deal after next season. If someone steps up and starts offering up their #1 prospect+1st round pick, we need to look at dealing him.

Would this team be that much worse off by moving Kesler for Brayden Schenn+, and then adding a guy like Paul Stastny through free agency?

That's a good point, you can get that same offer at the deadline next year if the team isn't competitive or next summer. This year takes a better offer, though if Kes wants out (yes I know not everyone thinks he does) then Gillis will have less of a choice.

Either way the team needs an injection of youth, there are a few ways to do it but trading Kes is probably the easiest.

[Strangelove]

Friedman pulls as much shit out of his ass as any other media guy these days.

Read Freidman, he says it is second (hand) rumour he's passing along

Which of course is french for "I just pulled this out of my ass"

A lot of folks these days seem to think Friedman and McKenzie are Hockey Gods

(didn't say you're one of them Tops).

Fact is they pull exactly as much poop out of their anus as they feel they can get away with

... with the reputation they have carefully built over time.

But make no mistake: THEY PULL POOP OUT OF THEIR ANUSES!!

Oh it's damn true, they sorta hafta in this day & age....

[Topper]

But make no mistake: THEY PULL POOP OUT OF THEIR ANUSES!!

Oh it's damn true, they sorta hafta in this day & age....

Not all of us have the luxury of having mathountouchables do it for us.

[Hockey Widow]

If we believe some of the rumours it seems most teams were offering their first, a decent prospect and a roster player.

Chicago couldn't clear cap without decreasing their depth for a playoff run. If they have a mediocre playoff and if it's true Kane won't commit without knowing the Hawkes bring in a Kesler type then I think they could offer up something nice this summer. Same with Anaheim. It is said they did not want to give up a roster player right now but were rumoured to let us have our choice of a pick and a top prospect. They too could be in the market.

Pittsburg I think won't be in the market this summer. Depending upon how MAF does they may have bigger problems.

I could see Detroit being interested but they don't like giving up picks.

I can see 29 teams kicking the tires on Kesler, especially if they think they can re-sign him. If he approves a trade to a team you would have to think that he likely would. I can see him liking Detroit and Columbus for nostalgic reasons but I still think he would jump for Chicago. That was the biggest rumour I heard when this all started was that he really like the opportunity Chicago provided with respect to playing with players he likes and in winning.

It is true that teams wanting Kesler would have had him for three playoff runs, counting this year,and that may make some interest wane but it is also true teams will have a better cap position and this year behind them to assess needs moving forward.

If the Canucks want to trade him he will be traded, but as we all know it will have to be to a legit contender, so that really narrows the field to 4-5 teams.

[rikster]

If the Canucks want to trade him he will be traded, but as we all know it will have to be to a legit contender, so that really narrows the field to 4-5 team

Gillis and Gillman are being criticized for having so many NTC's which given where they sit in the league standings is fair…With the Luongo trade, they are left with 9 of them…

Gillis and Gillman would argue in defence that those NTC's were signed at below market value and at a time when the team was still considered a legit Cup contender…

As a comparison, the teams brought up as rumoured destinations for Kesler also have a number of NTC's to deal with…

Detroit as an example has 11…

Chicago has 9..

Pittsburg also has 9…

Philly has 8 and Toronto has 7…

I found it frustrating to listen to the constant whining about the NTC's Gillis has given out as though they were only handed out in Vancouver…

Because depending on who the Canucks were targeting as that roster player, it is quite likely that player also had some form of movement clause which could have held up the deal…

Or, if the rumours were true that they were targeting a young player on an EL or soon to be RFA, then the team sending him Vancouver's way would have likely had to move another contract out to stay cap compliant which had some form of movement clauses in it which could have held up the deal…

Which is why I agree with those who feel that the off season is a better time to deal Kesler if that is what the team wants to do…

Take care...