The Fork in the Road

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What road do you think the Canucks should, or need to, take?

Major rebuild
6
15%
Minor rebuild
5
13%
Significant retooling (5 or more roster spots)
14
36%
Minor retooling (4 or less roster spots)
10
26%
Minor tweak (this is a contender with some minor depth issues)
4
10%
 
Total votes : 39

Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby The_Pauser » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:16 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:Yes, I think the SJS model is a better one to follow. Like it or not the Twins are with us for 4 more years. We have made that commitment and so have they. We must, finally, build secondary scoring around them. Everything SKYO said is bang on.

It was what MG said was going to happen this season. OK, it didn't happen for whatever reasons. But he simply cannot use the injury excuse this year. He cannot say he needs one more season with this core to see what they can do when healthy. The problems are more systemic than that. Injuries unmask that. Yes, injuries certainly do matter but it really is more than that with this team.


The multiple NTC will not pose a problem. Only a select few players have a NTC to ensure they get to stay in that city. Most have one to get to control where they go and when they go. So a NTC won't prevent us from being able to move a player but it will impact the number of trading partners and the time of year a deal can be done. In that respect MG will be hand cuffed, but he will be able to move players should he choose.

Making changes to the core is not just about getting full value back. It is also about changing the culture, creating cap space, creating roster spots.

I think we have a very strong nucleus on defence so just one big change there. Our goaltending is above average, so we are fine there. It is the combination up front that we need to really tear down and build back up.


We have secondary scoring around them. In fact, "secondary" scoring is about the only scoring we have been getting. The Sedins have been downright awful since they signed their contracts, and Daniel in particular hasn't scored a goal in a quarter of a season. We aren't going anywhere with them as our first line, and I doubt we go anywhere with them as our second line given how much they make. If Gillis isn't willing to explore moving them then the next 4 years are going to be extremely dark and gloomy.

This team needs a major rebuild. The core is dead, and clearly not good enough. It was easy to predict that this would be a bad year for the Canucks, and I accurately predicted this back in the Summer when all Gillis did was bring in Brad Richardson as his big UFA signing. Calling Torts "the big re-set" was just silly, and I hope fans call him out on it this year.

The multiple NTC's are a major problem because they don't allow Gillis to move any meaningful players. You can't expect players like Hansen and Higgins to bring back a large return that will change this team. In order to change our forwards in some meaningful way we need to be moving players like the Sedins, Kesler and Burrows. That's our core up front, and they are the reasons why this team isn't performing this season.

Defensively we have been a complete mess. In one or two periods we'll look good, then they'll break down and all hell will break loose. Edler with his team worst -23 clearly cannot handle the pressure of being a number 1 defenseman. If he still has value like we think he does, he needs to go. Hopefully we can get a legitimate top 6 forward with youth for him, otherwise it will be a tough pill to swallow.

Assuming the Sedins, Kesler and Burrows are all, or mostly, traded, then Luongo should be traded as well. No sense keeping an aging goalie around when we're doing a youth movement. I love Luongo, but it doesn't make sense. Bring in youth up front, continue to introduce youth on our back end, and ease Lack into a starters role (perhaps a 50/50 timeshare going forward with a veteran goalie who will be happy with such a role, and we know Luongo clearly wouldn't be).

Also, I have no problem with Tortorella as of right now. People want to scapegoat him, but he's not to blame. It's not his fault the roster he inherited just wasn't very good.
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby black ace » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:04 pm

When they hired Torts it was either going to be boom or bust. It obviously hasnt been boom so far. When you look back at AV now the thing that stands out more than anything is he got the most out of players. He put his players in a position to win and to contribute. With Tort the decision to rely mostly on his top 6 has no doubt hurt this team. Getting the Sedin's to kill penalties has hurt them. Looking back now its obvious that AV put them in a position to put up big numbers by starting them in offensive situations and Torts has made no secret that he wont do that. So obviously there production will slide. Could you expect such a drop ? of course not. The PP sucks. Well Tort doesnt like to practice it. Is it going to get better on its own ? Not likely.

The decision to not have any young prospects up front to start the season I think was a mistake as well. But that was a knock on Tort when he was in New York. Instead we get the ongoing rotation of guys from Utica who will never be more than 4th liners when everyone is healthy. At some point they will need to play. Even if you had given a guy 9 games to see how he would do.

What do you think the players reaction was when he tried to go into the Flames dressing room ? It obviously wasnt hey lets rally behind this guy. They havent won a game since. He came in with a reputation as a hothead and thats probably been cemented with the players despite his "closer" relationship with the media. How many times have we seen him yell at players on the bench ?

AV was criticized for not putting Kassian with the Sedin's. Well it still hasnt happened. AV was criticized for not getting much out of Ballard or Booth. Ballard was bought out and has struggled in Minny. Booth will be bought out.

Torts brought in to push this team over the top but instead he has pushed it over the cliff.
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Uncle dans leg » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:54 pm

I voted for a major rebuild.

How far can they sink in 15 games? Low enough for a top 5 pick?

Who honestly wants to see what this team will do in a 7 game series against LA SJS or STL? Not me

Slow, soft and shitty. That is the Vancouver Canucks in 2014. I try to move out all the olympians while they still have value. Maybe hang on to Hamhius but everyone else I'd be looking to move for prospects and picks...

If the coilers can "Fail for nail"...why cant Vancouver "suck bad for Ekblad"???? They're already 7 games into the campaign for fuck sakes...
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Uncle dans leg » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:57 pm

We could make Waw-Keem Eriksson our #1....save Eddy the Örn his confidence for next year....
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Arachnid » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:25 pm

Uncle dans leg wrote:I voted for a major rebuild.

How far can they sink in 15 games? Low enough for a top 5 pick?

Who honestly wants to see what this team will do in a 7 game series against LA SJS or STL? Not me

Slow, soft and shitty. That is the Vancouver Canucks in 2014. I try to move out all the olympians while they still have value. Maybe hang on to Hamhius but everyone else I'd be looking to move for prospects and picks...

If the coilers can "Fail for nail"...why cant Vancouver "suck bad for Ekblad"???? They're already 7 games into the campaign for fuck sakes...


Yep, if you are going to shit the bed, do it with style. We could get 6th pick and a very remote possible 5th.

We need to tank for the next 5-8 years like the Hawks and Penguins did...then our new core will emerge...fuck the AquaWomen...
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby RoyalDude » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:36 pm

All posting shenanigans aside, there is an opportunity to do a similar re-tool like the sharks did by shedding the dead weight for draft picks, i.e. Clowe, Murray and Handzus. But where the Sharks kill us is in drafting and developing, they got some good young players they've been harvesting. The Canucks are near void of that with the exception of last years draft, but it's years before those kids come to fruition if all of them ever do. Plus Gillis really needed to hit a Brent Burns home run with those useless Ballard and booth trades. The sharks were in far better position to retool than we are as their foundation is better than Gillis

Gillis is kind if fucked. I still think we are a good team when healthy but good isn't good enough, so something has to change in a bold move significant kind if way. The picture is getting old, the journeyman reclamation projetcs and deadline day ain't fucking working
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Arbour » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:00 pm

I voted significant retooling, but lean towards major rebuild. Two first round exits from the playoffs should have been an indication to Gillis that something needed to be done, and the changes needed to be more than cosmetic. The lack of critical player assessment over the last two and half years has delayed and exacerbated the inevitable, and now every other GM in the league knows that something has to be done, which certainly does nothing for Gillis`s bargaining position.

One can only assume that Torts was hired to bring about a change in the style of play, and that change was discussed with Gillis. It should have been apparent to management that Torts`s vision of hard fore checking team in the newly formed Pacific Division was going to require a significant over haul. Granted injuries have certainly exacerbated the situation, but so has the lack of proactive management, resulting in a huge disconnect between the ability of present player personnel to perform as requested. The Canucks have become a soft, slow team, with declining veteran talent, playing in a fast physical division.

It`s easy to rest on ones laurels while winning, the hardest thing for a GM to do is keep winning. It remains to be seen whether Gillis has the hockey acumen and the emotional detachment over the next few months, to run the Canucks like a business, because he's certainly no longer winning.
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Uncle dans leg » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:29 pm

The best chips Gillis has to play are Kesler and Edler. They could be moved for significant pieces possibly at the deadline. I would start with that and look into moving Luongo and Burrows next off-season.

My veteran keepers would be Bieksa, hamhius and the sedins(the latter mostly due to they are now untradeable.
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby dbr » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:06 pm

dbr wrote:Maybe you also have room to sign a guy like Olli Jokinen or David Legwand, I mean it would be great for this team to get younger but if we have the room to add a player like that then you have to make the big commitment and just go for it.


SKYO wrote:Jokinen is poison, his teams never make the playoffs, Legwand is more suited for a team like the Hawks, who just need a piece for uber depth, I'd much prefer getting that wicked sniper for our 2nd line somehow, someway.

Gaunce, Horvat or maybe even Fox I bet anything one of them if given a chance and some patience would be primo for our 3rd line center spot next season.


This team needs another cagey vet to hold down a third line next year. The Sedins can still win their matchups (their goal differential remains as strong as it was in their 100 point seasons), Kesler is still an effective player but we just can't roll lines when our next best line is centred by Brad Richardson.

Jokinen or Legwand could be effective here in that role, it's less than they're being asked to do now and it could really put us over the top.

Heck if this season goes any further sideways our first round pick could be in the top 10, that'd be a really valuable piece to get us that third centre we need so badly. Vincent Lecavalier? Mike Ribeiro, even?

You may not agree, but Mike Gillis obviously does: "We're going to be all right"
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Strangelove » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:43 pm

dbr wrote:You may not agree, but Mike Gillis obviously does: "We're going to be all right"


Yup.

Take the opinion of an NHL GM over that of a cross-dressing alcoholic carpenter

... or a frustrated bus bomber...

EVERY SINGLE TIME!!! :thumbs:

Going to be all right/close thread
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Strangelove » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:44 pm

The_Pauser wrote:The multiple NTC's are a major problem because they don't allow Gillis to move any meaningful players.

.....

Assuming the Sedins, Kesler and Burrows are all, or mostly, traded, then Luongo should be traded as well.


Umm wut?
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby $lacker » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:39 am

A few posters suggesting we should trade Kesler- that's a sure fire way for a long rebuilding process, ie 5 yrs vs retooling on the fly. We don't have the center depth to trade RK and we know the Sedins aren't going anywhere. On D Gillis will build around Tanev, Hamuis and Garrison and most likely Bieksa unless there is a trade that makes a lot of sense. Burr, Hansen and Edler all need to go. Gillis will get a cpl good pieces for those three but nothing mind blowing IMO - good young solid contributors.
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby ClamRussel » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:30 am

To be honest I'm perplexed as to why Hansen hasn't excelled under Torts. He seems the perfect fit for the Torts game. Perhaps he's been miscast as a top 6 at times. Over the years w/ AV he was always a secret weapon on the 3rd line who would chip in w/ timely goals, provide a speedy relentless forecheck and basically do all the things you need from a smart 3rd liner. Now he just seems completely lost out there.
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Lancer » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:13 am

ClamRussel wrote:To be honest I'm perplexed as to why Hansen hasn't excelled under Torts. He seems the perfect fit for the Torts game. Perhaps he's been miscast as a top 6 at times. Over the years w/ AV he was always a secret weapon on the 3rd line who would chip in w/ timely goals, provide a speedy relentless forecheck and basically do all the things you need from a smart 3rd liner. Now he just seems completely lost out there.


I think a couple of things lend themselves to the current state of affairs with Hansen:

- He gets in on the forecheck, but he isn't overly physical and tends to harass the puck-carrier rather than take the puck away.

- I don't think he is one of those guys who is amenable to the in-your-face style of Torts and shuts down when blasted by the coach.

- He's suffering from what apparently did in Weise - he believes he is too skilled to fill the role Torts wants him to play. As a bottom-six, it seems Torts wants them to rush in, knock the opposition off the puck and get it to the net ASAP to create havoc and muck in a goal. I think Hansen likely believes he has the skill to do something other/better than that.

- The guy is suffering from a combo of post-contract hangover and no-confidence. He can't play the way Torts wants him to play on the forecheck and in the offensive zone, and the times when he tries to play the way he wants to play, he has no success.

This guy needs to be one of the first ones to go.
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Re: The Fork in the Road

Postby Uncle dans leg » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:51 am

$lacker wrote:A few posters suggesting we should trade Kesler- that's a sure fire way for a long rebuilding process, ie 5 yrs vs retooling on the fly. We don't have the center depth to trade RK and we know the Sedins aren't going anywhere. On D Gillis will build around Tanev, Hamuis and Garrison and most likely Bieksa unless there is a trade that makes a lot of sense. Burr, Hansen and Edler all need to go. Gillis will get a cpl good pieces for those three but nothing mind blowing IMO - good young solid contributors.

We actually do have a couple of young centres knocking on the door in Horvat and gaunce. Not to mention the considerable return trading Kesler would bring. Think Johansen plus a top prospect if it was Columbus for instance...

I would look for similar returns if we moved Edler despite a perplexing theme of undervaluing him...lumping him in with Hansen and Burrows when it comes to value isn't anywhere near where I see him
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