What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck team?

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

What is happening to the team right now?

Slump.
22
34%
Downward slope.
16
25%
Flu.
1
2%
Injuries.
8
13%
Fatigue.
7
11%
Other.
3
5%
Nothing fool! Now shut your yap.
7
11%
 
Total votes : 64

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby herb » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:43 pm

Mondi wrote:Heck, I think Gillis did a decent job the first bit here. I'm not even all over him (like others), what bothers me is how quickly the Canucks went from juggernaut to average.


Not to nitpick too much, but this team is still an above average team if you look at the standings. 10th overall in the NHL is close to what most expected coming into this season.

I think Gillis has done a good job overall. He put together some fantastic teams and we have had an entertaining product for several years now.

That being said, using hindsight I think Gillis has had four main areas of failure:
1. Drafting has been mediocre at best under Gillis. Hodgson was a good pick. The jury is still out on Schroeder, but obviously he hasn’t been a NHL regular up to this point. Corrado was obviously a good find, but Jensen clearly has a lot of question marks. Connauton and Cannata were decent picks. Obviously it’s too early to make any conclusions on the 2012 or 2013 draft classes, but things are looking up for sure.

2. The Ballard trade was awful. Gillis lost that trade in a landslide. The team as had trouble scoring and having Grabner would not have hurt in that department. The 2010 draft wasn’t a great one, but having Howden or better yet Etem as a prospect would have been better than the Ballard experience.

3. Not resigning/replacing Ehrhoff. Gillis didn’t want to disrupt the salary framework of his defence, but the PP has been awful since Ehrhoff left and I doubt that’s a coincidence. The right side has been an on again off again problem ever since, and Edler hasn’t put up points at the same level.

4. The Luongo saga. I don’t think the end result was necessarily a bad thing, but Gillis let the goaltending situation turn into a saga and the organization looked pretty Mickey Mouse when they ended up trading Schneider after all that.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2021
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Zedlee » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:06 pm

herb wrote:
Mondi wrote:I think Gillis has done a good job overall. He put together some fantastic teams and we have had an entertaining product for several years now.



Hey Herb...gotta disagree with you here. Overall a lousy job by Gillis.

Gillis inherited the team that went to the finals, except for Erhoff and Hamhuis. He has failed to add to the core that was already here....the aging core is past their prime and there doesn't seem to be any young guns to step in. Trades and drafting has been lousy. Contracts? Some good "home town deals" but just as many stinkers. The Luongo contract was nuts as was the huge offer to Sundin. I pray that we're not saying the same thing about the Burrows and Sedin new deals in a year or two. Credit for finding Tanev and Higgins but hard to find much else to be positive about.
Zedlee
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby herb » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:30 pm

Zedlee wrote:Hey Herb...gotta disagree with you here. Overall a lousy job by Gillis.

Gillis inherited the team that went to the finals, except for Erhoff and Hamhuis. He has failed to add to the core that was already here....the aging core is past their prime and there doesn't seem to be any young guns to step in. Trades and drafting has been lousy. Contracts? Some good "home town deals" but just as many stinkers. The Luongo contract was nuts as was the huge offer to Sundin. I pray that we're not saying the same thing about the Burrows and Sedin new deals in a year or two. Credit for finding Tanev and Higgins but hard to find much else to be positive about.


I don’t buy this notion that Gillis “inherited” the team in 2008 and had nothing to do with it being successful. I don’t think that’s fair at all. Was he supposed to blow up the whole thing and make it “his” team? Now that would’ve been stupid.

When he came here he instilled a culture of winning. He added some key pieces to the team via trade and free agency, and re-signed our core guys to fantastic deals (Sedins, Kesler, our defense, his original Burrows deal was great, etc.). Hamhuis, Ehrhoff, Samuelsson, Sundin, Demitra, Torres, Higgins and Garrison have all been key pick-ups.

But by all means, please cling to the notion that Gillis & Co. “inherited” the organization and had no role in its successes and is only responsible for its failures.

The “young guns” everybody wants to see are coming. Four excellent junior players are our property. We’ll see how they fare starting next fall.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2021
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Meds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:34 pm

Mondi wrote:Don't be a prick. I said Prospal would have been about as useful as Hlavac was, whether that was accurate can never be known. But, it is my opinion and it is certainly not stupid to assert that a 38-year-old player who has not been playing any games this season might be useless. Remember Mats after all?


HEY!

Don't knock Mats. If you can't be satisfied with $10M (pro-rated) to mentor and develop Kesler, then you have to give him his due for scoring the winning goal against the Leafs in the SO. :lol:
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Zedlee » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:13 pm

herb wrote:
Zedlee wrote:Hey Herb...gotta disagree with you here. Overall a lousy job by Gillis.

Gillis inherited the team that went to the finals, except for Erhoff and Hamhuis. He has failed to add to the core that was already here....the aging core is past their prime and there doesn't seem to be any young guns to step in. Trades and drafting has been lousy. Contracts? Some good "home town deals" but just as many stinkers. The Luongo contract was nuts as was the huge offer to Sundin. I pray that we're not saying the same thing about the Burrows and Sedin new deals in a year or two. Credit for finding Tanev and Higgins but hard to find much else to be positive about.


I don’t buy this notion that Gillis “inherited” the team in 2008 and had nothing to do with it being successful. I don’t think that’s fair at all. Was he supposed to blow up the whole thing and make it “his” team? Now that would’ve been stupid.

When he came here he instilled a culture of winning. He added some key pieces to the team via trade and free agency, and re-signed our core guys to fantastic deals (Sedins, Kesler, our defense, his original Burrows deal was great, etc.). Hamhuis, Ehrhoff, Samuelsson, Sundin, Demitra, Torres, Higgins and Garrison have all been key pick-ups.

But by all means, please cling to the notion that Gillis & Co. “inherited” the organization and had no role in its successes and is only responsible for its failures.

The “young guns” everybody wants to see are coming. Four excellent junior players are our property. We’ll see how they fare starting next fall.


Notion? Ah no. It's a simple fact that the core that went to the finals was already here when Gillis took over. He added a few pieces that helped, but 5 years after he took over...the core is essentially the same.

Gillis has done well with the contracts, for sure...but to get those "home town discounts" he gave out way too many no trade clauses. Now he can't or won't move those guys!

Yes there are some young guns....but who knows how they will turn out...they are still jr prospects. Only one made the world juniors and he (Horvat) was acquired by trading a guy that was already here! You can't give Gillis credit for that.

Gillis gets a failing grade in my books.
Zedlee
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby herb » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:21 pm

Zedlee wrote: Only one made the world juniors and he (Horvat) was acquired by trading a guy that was already here! You can't give Gillis credit for that.


LOL.

Gillis can't even get credit for a trade he made! I guess the Ballard trade doesn’t count because Grabner went the other way.

Any reasonable chance at an intelligent discussion = over.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2021
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Per » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:26 pm

The core was already here, but would they have reached the final without adding the pieces Gillis did?
He also built that team for the "new rules" in he NHL. Unfortunately the refs forgot about those rules in the playoffs.... If they had kept calling the game as in the regular season, the Canucks would almost certainly have won the cup in 2011. Gillis got screwed by the league and has since tried to adapt to that, but with the new CBA he got screwed again.

He hasn't been perfect, but he has hardly been the failure some here seem to think.

And hell yeah, trades do count when evaluating the track record of a GM.
Drafting, trades, free agent aquisitions... It all counts. Including Horvat.
The question you need to ask is only was it a good or a bad trade?
User avatar
Per
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1774
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:45 am

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Jovocop » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:30 pm

Zedlee wrote:Notion? Ah no. It's a simple fact that the core that went to the finals was already here when Gillis took over. He added a few pieces that helped, but 5 years after he took over...the core is essentially the same.

Gillis has done well with the contracts, for sure...but to get those "home town discounts" he gave out way too many no trade clauses. Now he can't or won't move those guys!


Bryan Murray drafted Corey Perry and Ryan Getzlaf in 2003? Brian Burke inherited a good team and traded for Pronger. The Ducks won the Stanley Cup in 2007. Should both Murray and Burke share the credits?

MG did inherit a good team but he also made some significant additions, Ehrhoff, Hamhuis, Malhotra, Torres, Higgins and Lapierre (Two top-four defensemen, one 3rd line center, one 4th line center and 2 top-nine wingers. Although they could not win the cup in 2011, those players did contribute a lot to the success they had. Seriously, you would not credit MG for those additions??

Zedlee wrote:Yes there are some young guns....but who knows how they will turn out...they are still jr prospects. Only one made the world juniors and he (Horvat) was acquired by trading a guy that was already here! You can't give Gillis credit for that.

Gillis gets a failing grade in my books.


MG drafted Hodgson and traded him for Kassian. Kassian is still young and is improving each day.

If Shinkaruk was not injured, he could easily play for team Canada.

You also fail to give MG credits for signing Lack, Tanev, and Lain.
User avatar
Jovocop
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1712
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Meds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:31 pm

Zedlee wrote:Notion? Ah no. It's a simple fact that the core that went to the finals was already here when Gillis took over. He added a few pieces that helped, but 5 years after he took over...the core is essentially the same.

Gillis has done well with the contracts, for sure...but to get those "home town discounts" he gave out way too many no trade clauses. Now he can't or won't move those guys!

Yes there are some young guns....but who knows how they will turn out...they are still jr prospects. Only one made the world juniors and he (Horvat) was acquired by trading a guy that was already here! You can't give Gillis credit for that.

Gillis gets a failing grade in my books.


Yeah, and that core managed to miss the playoffs, and show their fans second round exits.

So Gillis augmented the core and made moves to compliment it.

The core that went to the finals in 2011 included Hamhuis and Ehrhoff, regardless of what you might think, both of those guys were core players. They were both Gillis additions. Manny Malhotra was a big piece of the puzzle for the regular season that year. Mikael Samuelsson, Max Lapierre, Chris Higgins, Chris Tanev, Raffi Torres, Aaron Rome, all of these guys are Gillis acquisitions. 9 names, nearly half of the roster. All of them saw action in the regular season and playoffs. All of them were integral to putting the core of this team over the top.

Gillis inherited a core that wasn't good enough to get it done until he added the right pieces. A few of those pieces departed for greener pastures and now they aren't good enough to get it done again.

So really, we should be pointing the finger at Burke and Jelly Nonis for building a core that isn't good enough to compete without the right complementary pieces.

And as for "only one guy made the WJC team this year". Give your head a shake. That is a small sample tournament and plenty of good players didn't go there, and plenty of now-they-are-no-names have been all the rage at that tournament in the past too.
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Hockey Widow » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:32 pm

I think as a franchise we are at a crossroads. MG took over a good team with a good core that had just missed the playoffs. He added key pieces that took us one game shy of a Cup. But we are now in decline.

He has a major decision to make. Does he go the Calagary Flames way, deluding himself that he is one or maybe two key pieces from winning the cup or does he deal with reality that we need to step back and do a bigger re-tool. He has reasons/excuses/justifications at the end of every year why he didn't make core changes. So did Calgary. Calgary went for it every year on the backs of Kipper and Iggy. They were deluded every year into thinking they were contenders.

Well we have been contenders and we are still in the top half of teams in the league. But we are perilously close to being like the Flames. If MG trades away the little future we have he will screw us over for years. After this year we have 4 guaranteed years left with the twins, love them or hate the. We need 2 top 6 forwards, a true 3rd line centre and a top calibre stay at home mother tucker of a d'man away from getting back to elite status. We can't get there this year with our cap restrictions. We can get there after this season once the new cap is released.

MG has to unload Booth and get one of our players with a NTC to agree to move. I think it has to be Edler. But he has to get back something sweet, like a Kane, to make it worthwhile. We have to integrate into our line up one or two of our young stars as we are not Detroit where we can wait for 4 years while they develop.

The Sedins need to either get rejuvenated with Burrows or we need to find a complimentary sniper for that line.

Kesler and Kassian seem to be developing chemistry but need another sniper for that line.

We need an Ott type to anchor our third line. We have more than enough complimentary pieces to build a solid third and fourth line from there.

To replace Edler I would love a tough stay at home net clearing asshole that can help keep the puck out of the net in the lady minute of a game.

Maybe we have the snipers coming next year, maybe not, but we had better find out in a hurry.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3616
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Meds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:37 pm

herb wrote:
Zedlee wrote: Only one made the world juniors and he (Horvat) was acquired by trading a guy that was already here! You can't give Gillis credit for that.


LOL.

Gillis can't even get credit for a trade he made! I guess the Ballard trade doesn’t count because Grabner went the other way.

Any reasonable chance at an intelligent discussion = over.


Yeah. I seriously don't even know how to respond to something that stupid. It's like, you can't give a carpenter credit for building a house with materials that he didn't speak into existence because, you know, the raw materials were already present in nature, the carpenter hand nothing to do with building the house.

Fuck me running, do they come much dumber than you Zedlee?
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby herb » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:46 pm

This team is at a crossroads for sure. If ever there was a team that needed some rejuvenation, this is it.

We finally have some exciting players to look forward to and, aside from some sort of home run scenario; I would absolutely hate to see any of them traded at this point. The more you have the more you increase your odds of some of them working out.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2021
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Meds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:58 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:I think as a franchise we are at a crossroads. MG took over a good team with a good core that had just missed the playoffs. He added key pieces that took us one game shy of a Cup. But we are now in decline.

He has a major decision to make. Does he go the Calagary Flames way, deluding himself that he is one or maybe two key pieces from winning the cup or does he deal with reality that we need to step back and do a bigger re-tool. He has reasons/excuses/justifications at the end of every year why he didn't make core changes. So did Calgary. Calgary went for it every year on the backs of Kipper and Iggy. They were deluded every year into thinking they were contenders.

Well we have been contenders and we are still in the top half of teams in the league. But we are perilously close to being like the Flames. If MG trades away the little future we have he will screw us over for years. After this year we have 4 guaranteed years left with the twins, love them or hate the. We need 2 top 6 forwards, a true 3rd line centre and a top calibre stay at home mother tucker of a d'man away from getting back to elite status. We can't get there this year with our cap restrictions. We can get there after this season once the new cap is released.

MG has to unload Booth and get one of our players with a NTC to agree to move. I think it has to be Edler. But he has to get back something sweet, like a Kane, to make it worthwhile. We have to integrate into our line up one or two of our young stars as we are not Detroit where we can wait for 4 years while they develop.

The Sedins need to either get rejuvenated with Burrows or we need to find a complimentary sniper for that line.

Kesler and Kassian seem to be developing chemistry but need another sniper for that line.

We need an Ott type to anchor our third line. We have more than enough complimentary pieces to build a solid third and fourth line from there.

To replace Edler I would love a tough stay at home net clearing asshole that can help keep the puck out of the net in the lady minute of a game.

Maybe we have the snipers coming next year, maybe not, but we had better find out in a hurry.


Good post HW. Some of this was the conversation on Sportsnet last night, good convo too.

I think this year Gillis has to make that decision before the trade deadline. If he think this core has what it takes with a couple of pieces, then he needs to go all in. He needs to pull the trigger in a big and bold way. He needs to hang on to both Horvat and Shinkaruk while he's at it.

I agree, it should to be Edler that moves, although if it is Tanev I can live with that if the return is a guy like Kane.

Booth should be moved for an overpriced bottom 6 defenseman who can do like you say, clear the net and hurt anyone who wants to get into Lou's kitchen. I say overpriced because that is likely what comes back for Booth. Think Komisarek before he was bought out. I also think that Alberts and a decent draft pick could find us someone like this.

On the subject of Booth, if Buffalo is interested in moving Ehrhoff then that needs to be explored. Booth, Gaunce, and a 2nd? A PPQB is critical, especially if Edler is moved.

A Raffi Torres type winger also needs to be brought in to replace Dale Weise, who IMO, is far too inconsistent in what he brings to the team.

I realize that some of these suggestions absolutely scream overpayment, but if Gillis thinks that this core is the one that can get it done, and by that I mean he is 110% absolutely convinced of this, then he needs to go big now, both feet, up to his eyeballs, balls out, break every personal rule he has, just get it done.....and if the team fails, then it's re-tool time and you move Luongo (assuming he's still willing) and a couple of other pieces in the summer.

And I only say go this way because, IMO, this is the last year in the "window". If we chase the dragon down the hole again next year we are two feet on the path to becoming the next Calgary Flames. One way or the other it is time to call a spade a spade and stick a fork in it come June 27th.
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Hockey Widow » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:01 pm

If all things stay the same I think Horvat is almost a lock to make the team next year. That may give us three good centres to build around. Richardson can hold down the 4th line pivot while Lain continues to develop. Then it's a matter of re-building the first three lines. Can Hunter and Fox ( ha ha ha) be snipers for this team next year!?
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3616
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: What's your opinion on what's happening to this Canuck t

Postby Meds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:08 pm

Hockey Widow wrote:If all things stay the same I think Horvat is almost a lock to make the team next year. That may give us three good centres to build around. Richardson can hold down the 4th line pivot while Lain continues to develop. Then it's a matter of re-building the first three lines. Can Hunter and Fox ( ha ha ha) be snipers for this team next year!?


I'm also wondering if Fox makes Gaunce trade bait......
User avatar
Meds
CC Legend
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Canucks Corner Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], ClamRussel, Island Nucklehead, JelloPuddingPop and 4 guests