Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

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Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby Lancer » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:25 am

Just finished reading Botch's story about Torts' take on mental toughness, etc. and it struck me for some reason that I'd heard stuff like this before: talking about concepts and vague themes on players' mindset, etc. Then it hit me, IIRC Keenan had gone on the same way when he started coaching here.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/hockey/canucks-hockey/Botchford+Canucks+late+game+mindset+need/9369738/story.html

Both coaches talked about playing an up-tempo, 200-foot game and being aggressive but both - publicly at least - were short on X's and O's. So Torts wants the guys to be 'stiffer' and have better 'mental toughness' and want to see more people laying hits. Wait a minute, didn't Keenan preach the same thing? Both are yellers and chest-pokers as well.

The question I have is who is working the X's and O's? Who is the tactical mind here? If it's Gulutzan, then if the PP is any indication I wonder if the team is just hooped in this regard. If it's Torts, then perhaps it would be comforting to get a better sense of where his mind is at in this regard - especially against the Pacific division leader teams. If there's one thing you could not take away from AV was that he was damn good at X's and O's - even if he couldn't adjust those on the fly.

To be fair, there are significant differences I see between Keenan and Torts. Torts has adapted his style to Vancouver and its roster whereas Keenan just did what he could to take control and remake the roster in his own fucked-up image. As well, call me crazy but I have more faith in Torts now than I did in Keenan then.

Thoughts?
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby Topper » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:30 pm

My only criticism of Tortorella to date has been his strict reliance on dump and chase offence. This criticism mainly regards the Sedin line as I have don't believe it suits those two players in most situations. They are puck control player, two of the best puck control players in the game.

I fully realize that it is the players that must play the coaches style and Torts style is very different to that of his predecessor. In most situations, over a season or two the GM adjusts the lineup to suit the coach's style of play. I don't think anyone believes the twins are going to be moved for players better suited for dump and chase. Given their new contracts, not going to happen.

In rare situations the coach needs to adjust his style to fit the players and the twins are those rare players. That line needs to play puck procession across the blue line, set up the cycle and work the puck to the net or the point. Tire the defenders with puck movement on the cycle and to and from the points.

I mentioned following the last game how baffling it seems to play dump and chase four on four Four on four is open ice puck procession.
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby Strangelove » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:02 pm

I dunno Tops, I see the twins carry it in often enough.

And Torts is smart enough to place a chaser with them.

Anywho...

Personally, I always saw Keenan as a major doofus .

I see Torts as quite the opposite in that regard.

Personally, I always saw Keenan as all ME ME ME.

I see Torts as a team-first kind of guy.

Keenan had no patience with young players for the most part, not so with Torts.

Keenan played mind games with his players, I don’t see that with Torts.

Keenan was a LOT shorter on X's and O's….

In short, Keenan was like a self-absorbed brain-damaged caricature of Torts.

IMESHO.

And hey, every coach talks about “mental toughness” at times amirite? :mex:
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby Topper » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:08 pm

Strangelove wrote:I dunno Tops, I see the twins carry it in often enough.

And Torts is smart enough to place a chaser with them.

Not often enough.

Torts is infamous for his tirades, but nothing is said about his pats on the back after good plays. A balance of criticism and praise.

Like training a dog.
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby Mondi » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:10 pm

If Torts was the GM would he bring in players like Peter Zezel and Brad May?
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby Strangelove » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:39 pm

Topper wrote:Torts is infamous for his tirades, but nothing is said about his pats on the back after good plays. A balance of criticism and praise.

Like training a dog.


Hmmmm.....

Mondi wrote:If Torts was the GM would he bring in players like Peter Zezel and Brad May?


Well said Mondi. :thumbs:
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby SKYO » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:45 pm

Mondi wrote:If Torts was the GM would he bring in players like Peter Zezel and Brad May?


If he was gm he'd trade for his fave player Boyle, he's like Rome to AV.

Torts is a much more focused coach, he's good at giving players a clear defined role with good communication albeit behind the scenes.

I have no ideal what Glen Gulutzan does though lol.
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby Meds » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:58 pm

Topper wrote:
Strangelove wrote:I dunno Tops, I see the twins carry it in often enough.

And Torts is smart enough to place a chaser with them.

Not often enough.

Torts is infamous for his tirades, but nothing is said about his pats on the back after good plays. A balance of criticism and praise.

Like training a dog.


Haven't seen too many tirades here yet. He's had a few, but I've seen just as many, or more, of those pats on the back.

I've found it amusing that the media hyped Torts up as a loose cannon who would give the gossip columnists in our city plenty of material for stirring up controversy.....and since being here he hasn't "lost his shit" once in the media, and his infamous "slagging of players" in the post-game scrums has been non-existent. He's called a spade a spade, but he is very good at building guys up while critiquing their games to the media whores.
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby rats19 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:00 pm

Torts over Keenan anyfrikken day
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby herb » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:02 pm

One pretty crucial difference between Torts and Keenan is Keenan is a bloody moron whereas Torts seems like a pretty smart guy.

It’s obviously really hard if not impossible go gauge a coach in terms of their X’s and O’s. We don’t know what’s being said or being tough.

I was concerned about Torts due to his loose cannon reputation. So far he has been excellent in that regard IMO.
One thing I find really positive is I think this group needs a *rah rah* kind of guy like Torts. AV was so cool behind the bench it was infuriating to watch at times.
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby Todd Bersnoozi » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:04 pm

I have been very happy with Torts thus far. To his credit, he has not created a media circus like in his previous teams. There was that little dust up with Glen Healy, but it was pretty minor. For the most part, he's pretty calm and cool too, I like the way he's always crouched over with a hand on his face looking like he's analyzing the game and his players, thinking of strategies and what not.

I luved his reaction in the Ducks game (around 5:30)



"For Fucks Sake". Then he drops he head like he couldn't believe it. Don't worry, it's not u Torts, your predecessor had the same problems. :lol:

I did like Iron Mike too, but he did seem a bit out of control (ie: breaking a stick and almost hitting Davie Boy Scatchard's head) and he did nothing when it was clear there was division on the team (linden side vs messier side). He was also a bit too full of himself (being coach + GM) by trading like most of the long time Canuck favorites, but he did get us Bert, McCabe and Pick (Ruutu?), which eventually turned into a Sedin. So he'll always have that trade to his credit for helping the franchise. :D I did think Iron Mike got a bit of a raw deal from Burkie as Burke said he was going to try to make it work between the 2, but Burke snaps up Crow the first chance he got.
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby Lancer » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:08 pm

Topper wrote:Torts is infamous for his tirades, but nothing is said about his pats on the back after good plays. A balance of criticism and praise.

Like training a dog.


I don't know if Keenan ever said a notably positive thing about anyone on the team that wasn't named Messier.

I get it that you don't go into details about your tactics and systems, but it just seems Torts just uses vague slogans when describing how the team is playing and how it should play. I dare somebody in the media to ask him to define 'stiffness'.

That said, like others have noted, his public interaction with the media has been markedly better than before and than anticipated.

Here's a question, if Gillis/Torts were to augment/change one of the assistant coaches to get more tactical acumen (or, at least, somebody who can dream up a better PP scheme - not a tall order, really) who would you recommend?

This is where a guy like maybe Guy Boucher could come in handy, no? :?:
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby Todd Bersnoozi » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:38 pm

Lancer wrote:I don't know if Keenan ever said a notably positive thing about anyone on the team that wasn't named Messier.


I don't know about that. There were some players that had breakout years cuz of Iron Mike, he liked our 2 rookies at the time and played them lots (Scatchard and Ohlund). He fully utilized Aucoin's slapshot. Oakie scored like 20G for a D-man and broke like a PP record for D-men @ that time. Aucoin never came close to those goal totals ever again throughout his career.
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby RoyalDude » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:27 pm

The comparisons are a short shelf life, players eventually tune him out due to his in your grill approach like Keenan.
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Re: Comparisons between Tortorella and Keenan

Postby dangler » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:44 pm

almost every coach has a shelf life and i think Torts knows it and it's part of the reason we've seen a much more tempered Torts here so far.
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