Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

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Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby nuckster » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:42 am

I thought Zack's status could generate some interesting dialogue. We have all had high hopes for him, heck we really needed him to step up and fulfill his potential this year. Now here we are with Zack playing on the 4th line and he has been relegated to a minimal amount of playing time each game. Another poster (i forget who - sorry) that I read on here the other day, made an astute point about how most players are going to play according to how the coach sets them up to play. In other words, if a dude is given first line minutes and high end players to play along with, they're going to develop accordingly. Alternatively, if you assign a player to your 4th line and set him up to be a bit of a goon - then it becomes no surprise about what unfolds.

When Torts came on board, he said the 'right' things about developing talent and yadda yadda yadda. But really? IF the coach is only going to assign higher end minutes to players he conceives as doing well, where does that leave an up-an-coming player in his development? Ofcourse there is an upside to his philosophy in that players who do well are rewarded and there's an incentive to do well and work your ass off. So personally I don't know what to think? Would Kass be any worse than Burrows on the top line?? I'm kinda thinking 'no'. Maybe a case could be made that we need to set Kass up for some success? You would think that the Sedins would have the potential to teach and support an up-an-comer like Kass on how to be in position for set-ups and how he could possibly dominate the front of the net. But no, lets continue on with the past prime Burrows with the Sedins and hope that some how he might find a way to earn some of the 4 plus million salary he has! :? As others have said on here, there is an element of staleness to the line-up and if you don't have some vitlaization and energy of younger players in the top end, perhaps it means that we continue seeing what we're currently seeing!?

It's obvious to all that Torts system has the team playing a relatively energized and exciting style of play, but it's lacking finish. If ya keep on going along doing things the same way and expecting different results, after awhile you get let go from teams like the Rangers and eventually the Canucks. So I bring this around to again to how Torts is utilizing Kass, and perhaps the larger issue of thinking out of the box when the box isn't providing the answers. What do you guys think about this?
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby Meds » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:02 pm

I'm all for moving Kassian up to skate with the Sedins. Gives them a strong net presence, an able bodyguard, and a right handed shot. The whole point of the Sedins game is puck possession, so the overall hope is that they aren't having to play defense. Kassian is definitely a late bloomer, but one thing that seems obvious about this rough and tough forward is that he is very much ruled by emotion and struggles with confidence. Last year he came out, played with Hank and Dank, scored 5 goals in 7 games, was hitting, sticking up for the Sedins, and very much on point. Then for some reason Vigneault moves him down and plays him with plumbers just so that Burrows can get the Sedins going. WTF? The Sedins were setting up Kassian. It made no sense, and regardless of how it was pitched, Kassian took it as a demotion, and then was demoted again when he wasn't producing and was turning the puck over while trying to setup guys who just couldn't read an offensive zone play to save their life.

Most young players grow faster and reach or exceed their projected potential when they have some success and are given a chance to build up some confidence.

So stick him with the Sedins for 15 games, if he's doing we'll leave him there. Work on his defensive game in practice, and then move him down to the third line during game situations to get that game experience.

Everyone who uses the Sedins as the third liners and PK guys with crow as an example of how young kids need to learn defense first needs to remember that the Sedins had each other. They grew up playing together, they had natural chemistry that had been honed throughout their growing up years. If Burke hadn't worked some magic to draft both of them, then I wonder if their development would have been the same.....
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby RoyalDude » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:33 pm

Back to this again, blaming coaches for Kassian's brutal play.

Sports is a reward based business, you get rewards for good play, you don't fucking reward players who suck in important areas of the game. Is this all about protecting Zack from himself by putting him with players who spend most of their time in the offensive zone - the Sedins and keeping him from learning the 200 foot game? That's not the coaching I want, coddling.
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby Island Nucklehead » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:38 pm

I agree with the Dude here. Kassian hasn't earned increased playing time. He's still young and learning how to use his size to his advantage, pick his spots, check emotions etc. etc. It's still far too early to give up on him.

I aslo don't think his conditioning would allow him to play a full game on the Sedin line. I would, however, be giving him PP time and letting him set up in front of the net. He couldn't be less productive than Burr on the PP...
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:09 pm

The guy probably deserves to sit a game and unlike some of the urine crowd I actually think he can be a good player in the league. However he has played like a lazy prick for the better part of two weeks so light a fire under his arse.

What kills me is the icetime Burrows is getting for doing fuck all. He should be on the 4th line at this point getting 4th line minutes and pk duty. Wake his sorry ass up and put him where he belongs atm.

Sedin Sedin Higgins
Booth Kesler Hansen
Richardson Sanotrelli Weise
Sestito Dalpe Burrows

Kassian will draw back into the lineup but he needs to grow up a bit.
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby The Brown Knight » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:25 pm

Sorry Nuckster,

I don't agree with you at all.

If Kassian wants more ice-time with better quality linemates....

1) Earn it
2) Become a more well-rounded player (I.e. improve two-way defensive game).
3) Improve Attitude.

Kassian being "gifted" a top 6 spot based on potential reflects badly on the "culture" that both Torts and Gillis is trying to create here.
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby mathonwy » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:40 pm

Kassian has proven himself to be a bit of a fucktard. There is no doubt that when he focuses at the task at hand, he has some world class hands and can be quite dangerous. (Along the same lines as Bertuzzi I think) But his idiotic decision making is proving to be more of a detriment then an asset.

Gallagher's evaluation of Kassian is on the point:

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/hocke ... story.html

"The Canucks continued the marginalization of Zack Kassin, and what’s amusing is that the supposedly smart people with this team haven’t yet noticed the clear pattern which is evolving with this guy they have so much invested in, even though you’d never know it based on the way he’s treated. The more pushed into the background he becomes, the more disengaged he becomes and the worse he plays. It’s not like he’s trying to make mistakes, but his play was nowhere near this level when he was first acquired and he was considered a vital part of the team. Relegated to the fourth line by coach John Tortorella, who never uses his fourth line until a game is won or lost, Kassian took a dumb penalty on only his third shift of the game in the second period, which really cost his team. It would almost certainly have led to a benching had the team not been out of the game with another one to play Sunday morning. So he ended up playing a regular shift in the third period and took another penalty early in that waltz, which was so bad it turned into public skating."

What I don't agree with is Tony putting the blame on the coaching staff. If Kassian can not take it upon myself to change his fucktard behaviour and learn to earn his ice time, then Kassian can go fuck himself. Kassian will never admit it but it's an attitude of entitlement.

The only other Canuck player in recent years that has demonstrated this type of similar behaviour is casual Kev and Bieksa has been much better the last couple years.

Torts is good for this team. I think the core players appreciate his no-nonsense attitude. If AV was still in charge, we'd be in deeper trouble than we currently are. I think Kassian should be given a few more games to see if he gets the message. If he doesn't, GMMG should look seriously at trading him. Our team doesn't have the time or depth to let a player like Kassian figure it out on his own time.
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby Diehard1 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:05 pm

Kassian is a young, inexperienced player who has major issues with consistency and effort. Until he starts skating harder and not throwing the puck up the middle in his own zone he doesn't deserve a promotion or extra ice time.

He will be fine, at worst he's a 3rd or 4th line crash and bang winger, but he's got to star earning ice time with his play. He could turn into a 30 goal power forward but he's nowhere near that at the moment.

Given the team won today without him I doubt he makes it back into the lineup for next game either.
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby BladesofSteel » Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:13 pm

If he doesn't respond with improved play and consistency once he returns to the lineup, I say they send him to the farm and put him in a position to succeed.

Dealing him at this point is a little premature, unless it's for a deal that simply cannot be refused.
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:44 pm

BladesofSteel wrote:If he doesn't respond with improved play and consistency once he returns to the lineup, I say they send him to the farm and put him in a position to succeed.

Dealing him at this point is a little premature, unless it's for a deal that simply cannot be refused.


I guess if you think sending him to the minors and losing him on waivers is a good idea then wtf cool beans man.

He should watch until the team loses or until there is an injury which won't be very long in either case.

I laugh at all the diatribe and vitriol over a KID but Burrows, Edler and Luongo are fucking awful hockey players atm and are huge reasons why this team sucks right now, and they escape scot free. Three guys pulling down 15 million of your cap and they look like AHL players. Luongo has been average this season and that is probably a compliment. edler will not make Team Sweden. Hopefully he grows a set of balls like Samuelsson and gets pissed off and lights it up.

BTW Kassian and Booth have more goals than the biting, hair pulling frenchman but hey it's Burr so he's all right. Hell, Sestito has more goals than Burrows in less minutes.
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby RoyalDude » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:56 pm

Blob, you are Kassians biggest fan but seriously your love for him blinds you. You crapped all over AV like it was his fault Zack sucks but did you hear what Torts had to say about Zack? Yikes.

The kid has been a pro for 3 years now,it's time for him to get it, if not, he never will. Time for tough love for Zack

Don't put Burrows and Zack in the same sentence. Burrows play away from the puck is way beyond zacks grasp. Burrows does many many good things on the ice that Zack cannot do cause Zack is to much of a fucking dufus to get
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:44 pm

RoyalDude wrote:Blob, you are Kassians biggest fan but seriously your love for him blinds you. You crapped all over AV like it was his fault Zack sucks but did you hear what Torts had to say about Zack? Yikes.

The kid has been a pro for 3 years now,it's time for him to get it, if not, he never will. Time for tough love for Zack

Don't put Burrows and Zack in the same sentence. Burrows play away from the puck is way beyond zacks grasp. Burrows does many many good things on the ice that Zack cannot do cause Zack is to much of a fucking dufus to get


Maybe read my posts Pacific Blue. I said he deserved to be benched and should sit until the team loses or a player is lost to injury.

Burrows has three fucking assists, is a - 7 and was afraid to trade punches with Phyllis Kessel. He is a 4th line player atm . He has coatailed the twins like a moldy piece of dog shit stained lint. He is a new born foal on his own at best. Kassian is 22 , slowly improving and has 5 goals playing 12 min per game with scrubs. The biter is 32 , declining and has 3 assists playing 20 min per game with the twins. One of these things is not like the other
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby The Brown Knight » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:06 am

I don't agree with Blob's assessment on Burrows at all.

Burrows hasn't been scoring, but he's been getting tons of good scoring opportunities. Simply put - he's just snake-bit right now. Let's see where he's at in 4-6 weeks. For right now however, it's just a bad slump.

Despite that however, Burrows' two-way game is still excellent. He brings so much more to the table than a Kassian or a Booth does.

My line of thought: Lets give Burrows some time to work his way out of the slump. The fact that he consistently gets grade A scoring chances game-in game-out, is an indication to me that he'll break out of his slump sooner than later (along with the fact that he's already playing a solid two-way game).
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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby The Brown Knight » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:08 am

p.s.___________Burrows was not afraid to throw punches with Kessel. What the hell were you watching? Burrows easily took him down and could've done a number on him had it not been for the refs intervening.

p.p.s._________Don't knock him for being 32 years old.......as that's hitting a little too close to home there bud. :!:

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Re: Kassian and Tort's 'Box'.

Postby Meds » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:24 am

Blob Mckenzie wrote:
BladesofSteel wrote:If he doesn't respond with improved play and consistency once he returns to the lineup, I say they send him to the farm and put him in a position to succeed.

Dealing him at this point is a little premature, unless it's for a deal that simply cannot be refused.


I guess if you think sending him to the minors and losing him on waivers is a good idea then wtf cool beans man.

He should watch until the team loses or until there is an injury which won't be very long in either case.

I laugh at all the diatribe and vitriol over a KID but Burrows, Edler and Luongo are fucking awful hockey players atm and are huge reasons why this team sucks right now, and they escape scot free. Three guys pulling down 15 million of your cap and they look like AHL players. Luongo has been average this season and that is probably a compliment. edler will not make Team Sweden. Hopefully he grows a set of balls like Samuelsson and gets pissed off and lights it up.

BTW Kassian and Booth have more goals than the biting, hair pulling frenchman but hey it's Burr so he's all right. Hell, Sestito has more goals than Burrows in less minutes.


Well most of these hacks would probably drink Edler and Burrows' piss for breakfast if they could.....I mean, after all, one was an undrafted tryout, and the other not even a first round pick who developed into top players on the team. They can do no wrong don't ya know..... :roll:

Lou has actually had one of his best starts, statistically speaking, in years. But when he gives up 3 goals in a loss to the Kings and is asked to stop just one more of the 22 shots he faced, I get called out for expecting more out of him.

I've obviously got my own opinions about the way Kassian is/has been handled, but I think it's safe to say we agree when I ask why the hell Kassian doesn't get a shot at the playing with the Sedins to get Kas going and confident, but Burrows who is completely invisible on the scoresheet this year is getting prime time and multiple opportunities. Booth is out performing Bur right now FFS.

I also subscribe to player development that fits the individual. Some players might not have the psyche that responds to the promotion demotion reward based style of coaching, and some of these guys might be very skilled players who will just disengage when singled out and not encouraged. It's not ideal, and obviously in a sport like hockey you want players who are hungry and never quit, but when future development from within the organization is so important, I don't know why people are resistant to taking a different approach when it could mean seeing the results that everyone wants to see. And it's not coddling a guy to give him a fucking chance.....nobody seems to think Burrows is being coddled right now. It is counter-productive to take a guy out of a place he is having success and benefiting the team and sticking him somewhere with linemates who aren't going to be of any help or use to him.....it is down right asinine to expect the same results.
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