Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Welcome to the main forum of our site. Anything and everything to do with the Vancouver Canucks is dicussed and debated here.

Moderator: Referees

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby BigTuna » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:28 am

It doesn't matter how good Schneider is, the value of goalies is crap right now. 9th overall is excellent value.
BigTuna
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:16 am

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby herb » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:26 am

This has been discussed before, but goalies (for whatever reason) don't bring back huge returns when they are traded. Schneider for the ninth overall in a very deep draft is good value.

Devan Dubnyk to Nashville for Matt Hendricks
Cory Schneider for the ninth overall pick (Bo Horvat)
Jonathan Bernier for Ben Scrivens, Matt Frattin, second-rounder
Ben Bishop for Cory Conacher, fourth-rounder
Steve Mason for Michael Leighton, third-rounder
Sergei Bobrovsky for second-rounder, two fourth-rounders
Anders Lindback (and Kyle Wilson) for two second-rounders, one third-rounder and Sebastien Caron
Tomas Vokoun for a seventh-rounder
Semyon Varlamov for first-rounder (Filip Forsberg) and second-rounder
Brian Elliott for Craig Anderson
Dwayne Roloson for Ty Wishart
Jaroslav Halak for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz
Kari Lehtonen for Ivan Vishnevskiy and fourth-rounder

Edmonton bitching about being left out of the competition is rich. If any team was ever in a position to overpay for a goaltender, it's the Edmonton Oilers.
User avatar
herb
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mars

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby The_Pauser » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:48 am

ClamRussel wrote: Based on MG's track record, and the Schneider deal in particular, the idea of trading Edler & Kesler scares the bejeezus out of me!


We'll end up trading him for Kyle Clifford and a 2nd round pick ;)
The_Pauser
CC 2nd Team All-Star
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:21 pm
Location: Surrey, BC

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby dbr » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:49 am

ClamRussel wrote:Was CS *really* shopped, or was it just to a select few GMs? If I recall correctly the Oilers were mad because they had a better offer on the table. Obviously it wasn't enough for MG to send him to a divisional rival. To me this was a surprise trade in the vein of the Thornton deal. Whereas if he was truly "shopped" the return would have been higher. Other GMs said so at the time, many of who had no idea Joe was even on the market.


I had thought it was in the same vein as the Cody deal, where MG basically targeted players/assets he wanted in advance and put his player on the table to the teams in possession of something he wanted.

We've all heard the list bandied about for Hodgson, of course nobody knows what it was for Schneider (other than that they wanted a higher pick plus additional assets to move him inside the division).

But I mean if you wanted a top ten pick and the guys outside the big four are either under a big goaltender contract (Carolina, Dallas and Buffalo) or in the division (Calgary and Edmonton), do you take a hard bargain from the Devils to get the asset you want or do you take a "better" return that doesn't include what you really want?

Assets just aren't very liquid in the NHL so IMO it's better to get the one you do want rather than taking something that was never on your list just because it is "more" - I mean looking at the next teams in the '13 draft Philly had just picked up a goaltender (and wouldn't know a high end one if it bit them on the ass) and then nobody else is looking all the way down to the Isles at 15th.

So do you take the Isles 15th overall pick and miss out on your guy just because it looks better to other people that we got "a first and two seconds" or what have you? Do you trade Cody Hodgson for Kyle Clifford and what ends up being the 30th overall pick just because that is a more numerous return than Zack Kassian? Etc.
dbr
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2279
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:37 pm

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby Lancer » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:04 am

dbr wrote:Assets just aren't very liquid in the NHL so IMO it's better to get the one you do want rather than taking something that was never on your list just because it is "more" - I mean looking at the next teams in the '13 draft Philly had just picked up a goaltender (and wouldn't know a high end one if it bit them on the ass) and then nobody else is looking all the way down to the Isles at 15th.

So do you take the Isles 15th overall pick and miss out on your guy just because it looks better to other people that we got "a first and two seconds" or what have you? Do you trade Cody Hodgson for Kyle Clifford and what ends up being the 30th overall pick just because that is a more numerous return than Zack Kassian? Etc.


The only way it makes sense to approach a trade in terms of liquid assets is if the GM is looking to get assets that someone else needs IOT trade it to them for something the GM needs. Three-way trades don't happen very often - the last one was in 2012 with Quincey and Downie involved. That said, when it comes to dealing with trading players who have NTCs, modified NTCs and the like, I think you may see more of them by virtue of the limited number of trading partners. Considering the NTCs Gillis has to deal with, I wouldn't be surprised if deals of that nature get pursued - which means we probably won't see anything until after the SCF.
Love the Sport. Love the Team.

Hate the League.
User avatar
Lancer
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 1265
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:41 am
Location: Arnprior, Ontario

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby Topper » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:34 am

Hockey Widow wrote:If I remember correctly there were a number of shocked GMs when the CS trade was announced. Common thought at the time was that MG demanded a high price to trade Cory to a divisional rival and teams like Edmonton balked at that. If I remember the ask was reportedly the number one and a good young roster player. I don't recall any rumours that other GMs had huge offers on the table that were rejected, just the opposite, they rejected MG's demands. As for Toronto, I doubt MG even gave them a sniff.

If Edmonton had offered their first and Yakupov they would have CS.

If Toronto offered their 1st and a young player they may have had him. If Calgary had offered their 1st and a roster player they could have had him. Any other team that may have been interested could have offered more. The fact NJD got him tells me no one over offered. The only teams that would have had to over offer were divisional rivals and perhaps the Leafs.

But I don't recall anywhere where MG left a treasure on the table rather than deal CS to a divisional team.

As DBR noted.

Don't forget, Vancouver coveted Horvat. Calgary needed a forward more than a goaltender so that left Florida, NJ and an over payment demand from Edmonton as the market for a first rounder. Philly would have been the later pick in the market for CS, but would Horvat still be on the board.
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
Topper
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 4266
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby The Brown Knight » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:36 pm

BigTuna wrote:the value of goalies is crap right now.


James Reimer's value is crap after his ridiculous meltdown against the Bruins in Game 7 last year.

Other than that though, you are correct that goalies' overall values are lower than in years' past.

In today's hockey and cap era, a suffocating team defense can overcompensate for goalies that are 'decent' but not of superstar calibre.
The Dark Indian Rises
User avatar
The Brown Knight
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 931
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:42 am

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby Art Vandelay » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:49 pm

ClamRussel wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Don Cherry stated it on Coaches Corner , well it must be true if he stated it. A small fortune eh ? How many blueberries could be purchased for a small fortune ?


Ya Cherry doesn't have any connections in hockey. Another great contribution!



So you slam my post and then back up your point with basically nothing....Why do you think Cherry is so fucking plugged into todays NHL teams. He hasn't coached since the 70's. I guess Orland Kurtenbach has quite a few sources htat he could tap into for insider info as well.

Cherry is a fucking neanderthal who barely even understands the way the game is played today.
User avatar
Art Vandelay
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:56 pm

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby Hockey Widow » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:07 pm

Some players commenting today that they have been told all the internet rumours are just that, rumours. No truth to the speculation that players with NTC about to be moved. Told the Canucks do not anticipate any big deadline day deals, it is up to the players here to get the job done and secure a playoff spot, depending upon how season ends the summer may see big changes. Consistent with what they were saying during the last road trip in that they were told not to expect the team to make any big changes at this point. Of course the caveat is always, if a deal comes along that makes us better today and in the future, blah, blah, blah.

Sounds like the Canucks want to be active but perhaps don't have the deals on the table that make sense. Given that the water boy has said missing the playoffs is not an option I wonder if MG is about to gamble that he has the horses to make the dance. Sounds like if the team can make the playoffs then MG may get a pass in that we are well positioned to use injuries as the excuse for not be able to do more than that.

Anyway, word I'm hearing is that the players have been told the internet chatter is not true, for what it's worth.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2954
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby Blob Mckenzie » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:23 pm

Unless you get a deal for Edler or Kesler that knocks your socks off Eye Bags may as we'll wait until the summer.
User avatar
Blob Mckenzie
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2767
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:34 pm
Location: Oakalla

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby SKYO » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:18 pm

thnx HW, translation MG wants overpayment again. :|
User avatar
SKYO
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2591
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby sagebrush » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:24 pm

Almost everyone wants to be overpaid.

Some recognize investments that pay off down the road.
User avatar
sagebrush
CC 1st Team All-Star
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:36 pm

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby $lacker » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:41 am

I don't believe what Gillis is selling - he'd like to make trades but he can't come across as desperate because the GM's in this league already enjoy toying with their former agent friend. Wonder what the Bodog odds would be on Gillis doing nothing and the Nux missing the playoffs followed by a swift firing of said GM.
User avatar
$lacker
CC Veteran
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 5:33 pm

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby Hockey Widow » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:17 am

It's so hard to say at this point. The excuse we are being sold is that the number of injuries are not only devastating but precedent setting. While I buy that we have been decimated by injuries I don't buy the precedent setting line. It misses the systemic problem, lack of depth.

I truly get how injuries have played havoc with the team but this ignores what so many have been saying, in various degrees, since the Boston series. It also ignores that MG has been promising an infusion of youth since then and has failed in so many ways to address that. It fails to acknowledge that lack of scoring and dependable secondary support for the twins has been a historical problem.

Further it ignores the fact that we are aging fast. Injuries do matter but don't ask us to pull the blinders tight to the other issues.
The only HW the Canucks need
User avatar
Hockey Widow
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 2954
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Trades and rumours (& fantasies) 2013-14

Postby Topper » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:41 am

Hockey Widow wrote:It's so hard to say at this point. The excuse we are being sold is that the number of injuries are not only devastating but precedent setting. While I buy that we have been decimated by injuries I don't buy the precedent setting line. It misses the systemic problem, lack of depth.

It also misses the fact that the slide began before the injuries began piling up.

The slide began with the end of the soft December schedule. Then there was the ill conceived decision to play tough on the Cali road trip......

I go back to questioning what the hell GMMG was selling the Aqualungs going into the season. I wasn't alone here in thinking the season was going to be a rough one. The emergence of Santorelli and Stanton eased the pain, but it was obvious the team would have to fight for a playoff spot given realignment and cap constraints.

Are the records of Minnesota, Dallas and Phoenix truly that shocking? Did GMMG still believe his line up was of the same calibre as Chicago, St Louis, Anaheim, LA and San Jose?
Over the Internet, you can pretend to be anyone or anything.

I'm amazed that so many people choose to be complete twats.
User avatar
Topper
CC Hall of Fan Member
 
Posts: 4266
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Earth, most days.

PreviousNext

Return to Canucks Corner Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Meds and 3 guests