Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby dbr » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:53 am

Yeah, no team ever gets really good while multiple players are signed to sweetheart deals and then struggles to maintain their depth as those deals expire and must be extended at closer to the market rate (or the player is lost entirely).. never happens.

Chicago never went from perhaps the most dominant team of the lockout era to a team that couldn't crack the top two in their division. None of those other teams experienced the kind of steep decline that Vancouver has, falling from a 1st overall finish all the way to another 1st overall finish. The Boston Bruins didn't follow up a cup run with a first round playoff exit. This kind of stuff just never happens, except in Vancouver. :crazy:
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby Mondi » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:15 am

Hmm...

Hawks followed up a two season downturn with a Cup win.

Bruins followed a one season downturn with a return to the finals.

LA followed up with a trip the conference finals.

Penguins and Wings have been perennial contenders since 2008.

Canucks went from the SCF to 1-8 in the playoffs. And let's see how this year goes.

But yeah, because it happened to NJD and PHI, its okay that it's happening here. It's inevitable and fans should be happy with Sestito, Booth and Kassian. Everything is fine.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby dbr » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:49 am

Mondi wrote:Hmm...

Hawks followed up a two season downturn with a Cup win.

Bruins followed a one season downturn with a return to the finals.

LA followed up with a trip the conference finals.

Penguins and Wings have been perennial contenders since 2008.


The Wings have had a bunch of 5th and 7th seed appearances and never got further than the second round since 2009.

The Penguins had a couple of first round exits in a row and won just one playoff series in the three years following their Stanley Cup victory.

See, that is the thing Mondi.

Perennial success with little or no fluctuation from year to year is an exception in this league, especially if you define success as a lengthy playoff run where a few injuries or a couple of bad games can seal a team's fate.

This is evident when you look at these teams recent histories.. unless you choose to selectively ignore some disappointing finishes (ie. the ones teams other than the Canucks had) of course.

I am not even trying to say the Canucks are primed to set the league on fire and return to their peak as a team this year, it is pretty obvious that there is some restructuring going on and it doesn't look finished to me.

I just think the portrayal of reality in your posts is wildly inaccurate and if I didn't know better I might think that was the result of deceit and dishonestly rather than merely a haphazard examination of the facts.

But yeah, because it happened to NJD and PHI, its okay that it's happening here. It's inevitable and fans should be happy with Sestito, Booth and Kassian. Everything is fine.


This is again an inaccurate portrayal of reality and of my opinion for that matter.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby Mondi » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:48 am

The issue isn't the finishes per se, it's as you say...the team isn't exactly primed to return to form.

The idea that a team should be in the top 4 each season is not what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is shepparding assets to keep the team in the conversation. No one was questioning whether the Hawks, Wings or Pens could win the cup or say, qualify for the playoffs from day one of the season.

What's wrong with wondering how a team that looked as good as it did in 2011 (and even 2012) could be so average last season and thus far this season? Surely it can't be that collectively the key players have declined into mediocrity. Perhaps it is more likely that former key players have been replaced by guys who aren't as good.

I like the deceit and dishonesty allegations, after all this board needs some counter to the homer vibe.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby herb » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:17 pm

Well, we are only six games in (lest we forget the Canucks went 4-3-2 and 5-5-1 in October to start the 2011 and 2012 seasons). The Canucks were also 3-2-2 in January 2013 to start the shortened 2013 campaign.

Perhaps this team just played above its head all these past years and it regressing to the mean so to speak, but I don’t read too much into these first few games. This group is a notoriously slow starter, plus we are integrating a few new players and of course the coaching staff change has had a big impact.

One notable change is that several key contributors from the past several seasons like Ehrhoff, Malhotra, and Hodgson have not been fully replaced.

Anyway, trading away one of our top four is not the answer to any of our problems right now. Tanev and/or Corrado simply are not ready to step in.

I know I am in the minority around here, but I’m excited to see Schroeder play. He is a very smart player, which our hard working but somewhat uncreative second and third lines could use an injection of. I think it was HW who suggested a Booth-Schroeder-Kassian line, which is an idea I could get behind.

Honestly though, if we don’t see a massive improvement from Kassian and a large and sustained increase in productivity from Booth and Schroeder, we will not have the depth to hang with San Jose and LA. I have liked what I have seen from Booth so far, but the bottom line is that we need somebody not named Sedin to start showing up on the score sheet.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby dbr » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:37 pm

Mondi wrote:The issue isn't the finishes per se, it's as you say...the team isn't exactly primed to return to form.

The idea that a team should be in the top 4 each season is not what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is shepparding assets to keep the team in the conversation. No one was questioning whether the Hawks, Wings or Pens could win the cup or say, qualify for the playoffs from day one of the season.

What's wrong with wondering how a team that looked as good as it did in 2011 (and even 2012) could be so average last season and thus far this season? Surely it can't be that collectively the key players have declined into mediocrity. Perhaps it is more likely that former key players have been replaced by guys who aren't as good.


Well it is pretty clear to me.

The 2010-11 team was constructed in a marketplace behaving as though there was a $59m salary cap ceiling, yet the Canucks managed to spend nearly $63m in cap dollars by exploiting LTIR which of course gave them an extremely strong roster at the time.

Since then the ceiling has risen all the way up to $70m and taken the marketplace with it, and thanks to the new CBA we are still in a position where the team we will field this year will add up to about $300 000 more against the cap than the 2010-11 edition. That's three seasons later, and we're spending one half of one percent more than we did.

Since then we've seen contracts for guys like Alex Burrows, Kevin Bieksa, Alex Edler, Chris Tanev, Chris Higgens and Jannik Hansen all expire, just retaining those guys has cost us what, $7-8m (15% of the cap)?

Combine that in with a franchise that was already just a little bit older, that is right now missing a crop of 23-27 year olds (look at the 2005-2008 drafts, we dealt two players and one bust and had a fourth get himself killed, other than that we had one player contribute anything to this team and he's declined to the point of not being worth a contract this year) contributing which is what successful franchises in this league live on, and you have a team that has fallen just a bit further than other contenders did when the salary cap finally caught up with them.

Look what happened to Chicago when they had a cap crunch after winning. They had to dump a guy like Campbell for less than nothing but they consistently moved other players for futures (Barker for Leddy; Ladd for a prospect and a 2nd; Bfugly, Sopel and Eager for two prospects and 24th and 38th overall picks; Versteeg for Staalberg and a couple of prospects; Brouwer for a 1st; am I missing anything?) because they were all guys who were young and contributing at a high level. Boston had a cap crunch of sorts and dealt Tyler Seguin for a high end first liner in Loui Eriksson.

Has every move Mike Gillis made since then worked out, or even seemed brilliant before we had the benefit of hindsight? Not even close. And it's just further exacerbated the reality of the situation which is teams which ascend as the result of specific outstanding contracts, are going to fall back to reality eventually. We've fallen a little further than some, but nowhere near as far as others by the looks of things to this point.

And this is all ignoring the fact that the team's tactics largely did not change until this offseason despite marked changes both in play across the league and in the Canucks opponents anticipating their specific strategies..

I like the deceit and dishonesty allegations, after all this board needs some counter to the homer vibe.


Oh they aren't allegations, like I said if I didn't already know better I'd think that might be the case.

But I do know better than to think there is more than meets the eye here than a simple hastily considered evaluation of how other teams do after making a run at the cup leading to a mistaken conclusion that no other team ever has to retool.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby herb » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:10 pm

dbr wrote:Since then we've seen contracts for guys like Alex Burrows, Kevin Bieksa, Alex Edler, Chris Tanev, Chris Higgens and Jannik Hansen all expire, just retaining those guys has cost us what, $7-8m (15% of the cap)?


Interesting point – It’s actually an increase of $10,375,000 from 2011 to 2014 if you factor in:

Bieksa: $3,750,000 to $4,600,000 ($850,000 increase)
Booth/Samuelsson: $2,500,000 to $4,250,000 ($1,750,000 increase)
Burrows: $2,000,000 to $4,500,000 ($2,500,000 increase)
Edler: $3,250,000 to $5,000,000 ($1,750,000 increase)
Garrison/Ehrhoff: $3,100,000 to $4,600,000 ($1,500,000 increase)
Hansen: $825,000 to $1,350,000 ($525,000 increase)
Higgins: $1,600,000 to $2,500,000 ($900,000 increase)
Tanev: $900,000 to $1,500,000 ($600,000 increase)

Looking at this list, there were some excellent contract values in 2011 that just couldn’t be maintained.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby Strangelove » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:48 pm

Nice conversation, especially awesome posting by young Dave. :thumbs:

(the Great Strangelove taught him everything he knows)

Did Mondi just admit to being a troll though? :eh:

Wish I had more time, hectic day....
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Shinkaruk and Booth for Erhoff?

Postby The Brown Knight » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:00 am

Shinkaruk and Booth for Erhoff?

With rumors swirling that the Sabres are pretty close to sending Ryan Miller to Edmonton for Nail Yakupov, I can't help but wonder about Erhoff.

I think an argument can be made that Erhoff would mean (or meant) as much to the Canucks almost as much as Miller would mean to Edmonton.

Would you be willing to move Gaunce, or even one of Horvat or Shinkaruk for Erhoff?

I'm guessing that if we really wanted Erhoff, it would cost us Shinkaruk and Booth (Booth so that it allows us to fit in Erhoff's salary......they take Booth off our hands since they'd be getting Shinkaruk).

I'd much rather hold onto Shinkaruk and Horvat and give away Gaunce or Jensen instead, but would Buffalo go for it? Given what Erhoff meant to this Canucks team would it be worth giving up Shinkaruk?
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby SKYO » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:50 pm

Sounds like the Florida Panthers will be having a fire sale for their vet's.

Versteeg, Flash, Goc, Matthias, Boyes, Upshall.

Canucks need a 3rd line center....get in there MG!
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby herb » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:59 pm

With the coming out party of Jason Garrison (good job Gillis), I don't think there is much urgency at all to adding another top four type guy.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby The Brown Knight » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:09 pm

herb wrote:With the coming out party of Jason Garrison (good job Gillis), I don't think there is much urgency at all to adding another top four type guy.


Garrison is great, no doubt, but keep in mind that our power play is still ranked almost dead last......and keep in mind as to where it was when Christian Erhoff was here, and the role he played on our power play. I'd like to think of Garrison being a replacement for Salo......while Erhoff is.......well....Erhoff.

I think a good argument can certainly be made that the Canucks are one powerplay quarterback/puck moving defenseman away from being a cup contender again.

In an ideal world, I'd offer Gaunce or Jensen (along with Booth....Sabres would have to eat some salary) in return for Erhoff, but my best guess is that it would most likely cost us Shinkaruk (along with Booth).

I really dislike the idea of moving Shinkaruk, but if bringing back Erhoff gets us back to our 2011 or even 2012 level and keeps us at that level for atleast another 2-3 years, then fuck it.......I'm in.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby herb » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:27 pm

The Brown Knight wrote:Garrison is great, no doubt, but keep in mind that our power play is still ranked almost dead last......and keep in mind as to where it was when Christian Erhoff was here, and the role he played on our power play. I'd like to think of Garrison being a replacement for Salo......while Erhoff is.......well....Erhoff.


Keep in mind our PP has been getting a ton of shots on net and quality scoring chances. Sooner or later the flood gates will open.

This isn't the same PP from last year which was stationary and barely had any shots directed towards the net.

Shinkaruk is the most talented and offensively gifted Canucks prospect I have seen since maybe Bure. The kid has sick skills and may be on the Canucks roster next year. He is about as untouchable as prospects get.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby herb » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:29 pm

Oh, and we couldn't even fit Ehrhoff under the salary cap without losing a defenseman who is better defensively or a forward when we are thin on forward depth already. Dumb idea.
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Re: Moving one of our Top 4 defenseman for a Top 6 Forward

Postby RoyalDude » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:17 pm

herb wrote:

Shinkaruk is the most talented and offensively gifted Canucks prospect I have seen since maybe Bure. The kid has sick skills and may be on the Canucks roster next year. He is about as untouchable as prospects get.


Whoa, whoa, whoa easy there big fella. The kid is light as a feather, he has an up hill battle. I like the kid too, but keep it real
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