CBA negotiations

[donlever]

Ever read the Gunslinger (King) series mathonwy?

[ESQ]

Fehr wasn't around for the last set of negotiations and he didn't sugarcoat what happened to the union the last time it sat across the table with the league.

"I don't think it's a matter of conjecture whether the players made significant concessions in the last agreement," he said. "It was an enormous amount of money in terms of the wealth transfer over the period of the agreement. The players understand what that was.

"They understand what happened."

Now that is very interesting, because it is totally incorrect. Players' salaries have exploded because of the new CBA and the cap floor, plus the % that was initially offered by the league was significantly higher than what they settled for after a cancelled season. So every player was out a year's salary, plus around 10% of future earnings because of the PA's stubborn attitude.

Goodenow lacked the vision to see how critical a cap floor would be to the average salary of his players, and turfed a season as a result. There isn't a player in the League that can look at the post-salary cap world, 7 years later, and feel they got screwed as a result.

The posturing is interesting, but a good thing. The GMs are actually interested in amending the CBA to allow them to spend more money on players - for example by trading salary, buy-outs without cap hits, etc. Everything that enables GMs to sign shitty deals is good for the PA, so they actually have plenty of bargaining power already.

I can't see a work stoppage happening. Last time, both sides thought they had too much to lose by giving in, this time both sides have too much to gain to not give in.

[mathonwy]

Ever read the Gunslinger (King) series mathonwy?

Yup sure have but it's been awhile.

King really stretched that series longer than it needed to be.

[donlever]

Ever read the Gunslinger (King) series mathonwy?

Yup sure have but it's been awhile.

King really stretched that series longer than it needed to be.

So this is how I feel about the NHL right about now.

The (spoiler alert) never ending circle.....

[wienerdog]

If there is one regular season game missed due to a lockout I am officially done.

As is my financial investment in both the local team and the league.

x2

Hmm..

I think the Canucks losing the SC last season coloured my glasses somewhat differently than the rest of you.

If there was a work stoppage, I really wouldn't care...

NDI, but I'm guessing maybe you are a bit younger than the rest of us greybeards?

Last work stoppage pissed me off, but not enough to leave the game.

One happening now will alienate me forever.

It's a complicated mix of reasons, but I think the most prevalent one has to with how old I am and how that has changed my view of the League...

[mathonwy]

NDI, but I'm guessing maybe you are a bit younger than the rest of us greybeards?

36?

Not young anymore.

I try to not let anything make me jaded as complaining takes too much energy.

Hockey at its highest level is such an amazing spectacle that a work stoppage is just noise to me. It would certainly be sad though if there was indeed a work stoppage and Canucks Corner suddenly emptied out. That suck some serious ballage.

On another note, I honestly and truly think that the league needs a new commish. We really need someone that relates to the fans and is NOT a dick in order for the NHL to move to the next level. Like it or not, Sports is is a popularity contest and the NHL is losing and they're losing big. The move of the Thrashers to the Peg is a sign of a losing battle. It's great for Canadian hockey but very very bad for TV revenues. Nobody in the US cares a fuck about what goes in WinterPeg.

[wienerdog]

NDI, but I'm guessing maybe you are a bit younger than the rest of us greybeards?

36?

Not young anymore.

I try to not let anything make me jaded as complaining takes too much energy.

Hockey at its highest level is such an amazing spectacle that a work stoppage is just noise to me. It would certainly be sad though if there was indeed a work stoppage and Canucks Corner suddenly emptied out. That suck some serious ballage.

On another note, I honestly and truly think that the league needs a new commish. We really need someone that relates to the fans and is NOT a dick in order for the NHL to move to the next level. Like it or not, Sports is is a popularity contest and the NHL is losing and they're losing big. The move of the Thrashers to the Peg is a sign of a losing battle. It's great for Canadian hockey but very very bad for TV revenues. Nobody in the US cares a fuck about what goes in WinterPeg.

Haha, so you're a "greying" beard.

Well, I have 5+ years on you on the race to the Long Dirt Nap, but we're definitely close enough for it not to be a real factor. I asked because if was in my 20's (or maybe even very early 30's), I might have been more forgiving. You know, less cares in life in general is all.

Now, I have bigger fish to fry. I just want this fucking club to win a blasted Cup so I can put this obsession to rest.

A stoppage will put that to rest for me for good - a year lost will hurt the Nucks tremendously (again) and I'm not waiting for these a-holes to sort out their "mo money mo problems" anymore.

Call it a principle thing.

[donlever]

Now, I have bigger fish to fry. I just want this fucking club to win a blasted Cup so I can put this obsession to rest.

A stoppage will put that to rest for me for good - a year lost will hurt the Nucks tremendously (again) and I'm not waiting for these a-holes to sort out their "mo money mo problems" anymore.

Call it a principle thing.

Yep, it's all that and a bag of chips for sure.

But it's also other things.

Bettman
Refereeing and the BS that surrounds it
Ambiguity when it comes to rules
Rules changing mid period, mid game, mid season, mid post season
Power brokers in the league office making decisions on games their off spring play in
Canadian fans being treated like moronic second class citizens while the haters down South get all the love

I could go on....

As an aside..

If someone steals something of yours you get pissed off.

If they steal something and then lie right to your face about it you start to vibrate.

If they do both of the above and then ask youto fork out a bunch more money to be around them smoke starts coming out of your ears.

Then, if the fuck off for a few months, for the second time this millenium and show up at your door once again when they feel like it expecting the open arms treatment?

Fuck 'em.

[dbr]

Begs the question of how many of us are waiting to get our cup so we can fuck off and do something else with our lives already..

(I don't exclude myself from that group by the way.)

[Larry Goodenough]

Begs the question of how many of us are waiting to get our cup so we can fuck off and do something else with our lives already..

(I don't exclude myself from that group by the way.)

+1

[wienerdog]

+1,000,000

[Per]

Fear is the key.

Corrected it for you.

[rufus]

Fehr wasn't around for the last set of negotiations and he didn't sugarcoat what happened to the union the last time it sat across the table with the league.

"I don't think it's a matter of conjecture whether the players made significant concessions in the last agreement," he said. "It was an enormous amount of money in terms of the wealth transfer over the period of the agreement. The players understand what that was.

"They understand what happened."

Now that is very interesting, because it is totally incorrect. Players' salaries have exploded because of the new CBA and the cap floor, plus the % that was initially offered by the league was significantly higher than what they settled for after a cancelled season. So every player was out a year's salary, plus around 10% of future earnings because of the PA's stubborn attitude.

Goodenow lacked the vision to see how critical a cap floor would be to the average salary of his players, and turfed a season as a result. There isn't a player in the League that can look at the post-salary cap world, 7 years later, and feel they got screwed as a result.

The posturing is interesting, but a good thing. The GMs are actually interested in amending the CBA to allow them to spend more money on players - for example by trading salary, buy-outs without cap hits, etc. Everything that enables GMs to sign shitty deals is good for the PA, so they actually have plenty of bargaining power already.

I can't see a work stoppage happening. Last time, both sides thought they had too much to lose by giving in, this time both sides have too much to gain to not give in.

Methinks a bit of revisionist history here. It was a lockout, not a strike. The players took a significant hit to their salaries at the time, what with escrow, etc. the reason the salaries have exploded has almost nothing to do with the cba and everything to do with the Canadian dollar and the increased revenues as a result. that plus the idiocy of gms who continue to pay more than top dollar for players. the owners have no one but themselves to blame if they don't like where things went.
and now the nhl continues to trat the pa with disdain and disrespect, which is not a clever bargaining stance imho.

[Tciso]

On another note, I honestly and truly think that the league needs a new commish. We really need someone that relates to the fans and is NOT a dick in order for the NHL to move to the next level. Like it or not, Sports is is a popularity contest and the NHL is losing and they're losing big.

Damn, I'd vote for you on this one comment alone. You nailed it. It's not just that Bettman comes across like an asshole (without my "anti-libel suit" training, I might accidentally have called him an asshole), but, whatever the magical and totally invisible "good" he does for the game is totally over-whelmed by the fact that as a whole, fans hate him, and turn the channel whenever he comes on the TV

If a guy like Dana White can take MMA from nothing to an empire in a decade, just imagine what a new commish with some personality and populatiry amongst the fans could do. Instead, we have a commish that is seen more like one of the bad guys from bad WWF/WWE matches.

[ESQ]

Methinks a bit of revisionist history here. It was a lockout, not a strike. The players took a significant hit to their salaries at the time, what with escrow, etc. the reason the salaries have exploded has almost nothing to do with the cba and everything to do with the Canadian dollar and the increased revenues as a result. that plus the idiocy of gms who continue to pay more than top dollar for players. the owners have no one but themselves to blame if they don't like where things went.
and now the nhl continues to trat the pa with disdain and disrespect, which is not a clever bargaining stance imho.

Hm, well I respectfully disagree with you there.

First of all, escrow money has gone back to the players every year because revenues exceeded expectations every year.

Because of tying salaries to revenues in the current CBA, and instituting a cap floor, the lowest team salary has gone from ~$23 million to $49 million in 7 years. In 2003-04, six teams had a payroll above $60 million, today there are 17 (plus two at $59 million and change). The Average payroll in 2003-04 wouldn't even meet the cap floor today.

The cap reduced salaries for basically three teams by the end of the current CBA seven years later - NYR, Philly, and Toronto. Around 25 teams have had their salaries go up, many of which have more than doubled (Nashville, Pitt, Columbus, Minny, etc.). Some of that is due to the Canadian dollar's rebound, but the CBA's effect of drastically increasing payroll is more apparent south of the border than in Canada. Obviously there is some inflation to be accounted for as well.

The money lost by the players is entirely their own fault, because the deal they settled for after losing a year's salary was worse than what they were initially offered. They bluffed in a stupid situation and lost big-time, because ultimately they had more to lose than the owners. I don't see them making that mistake again.